October 17, 2009 at 8:05 am
Still, no excuse to not do some research before posting....
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
October 17, 2009 at 11:24 am
talltop-969015 (10/17/2009)
Still, no excuse to not do some research before posting....
Agreed... but sometimes folks don't even know what to look for especially when they're new to SQL. Some haven't even learned that BOL exists, yet.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 17, 2009 at 12:23 pm
I find it very hard to believe that someone is that clueless that they can't search Google beforehand or find BOL that is installed with SQL Server under the Documentation and Tutorials section. I mean if they are that clueless maybe they need to rethink learning SQL Server in the first place. After all, ignorance is not bliss. 🙂
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
October 18, 2009 at 10:10 am
I tend to agree with you that they need to research, but I can see both sides. There are plenty of people that don't "want" to learn SQL Server. They must because of their job. They don't often know how to search.
When I started working in other areas, say with a tractor as an example, I didn't know the terminology. I struggled to figure out how to ask a question. I did my research, but I also asked some questions early on that seem stupid now because I needed an answer, or guidance.
There is a lot more information in technology than in some other areas, and I agree people should make some effort to learn, but I can understand someone posting without having much knowledge, even after looking through things. What I don't like is giving them an answer without them having to work a little and help themselves. I also don't like to see the same things repeated. If I find someone that isnt' willing to do some work on their own, I'll respond that help is not forthcoming without effort.
October 18, 2009 at 10:45 am
talltop-969015 (10/17/2009)
I find it very hard to believe that someone is that clueless that they can't search Google beforehand or find BOL that is installed with SQL Server under the Documentation and Tutorials section. I mean if they are that clueless maybe they need to rethink learning SQL Server in the first place. After all, ignorance is not bliss. 🙂
Heh... yep, I agree except for real newbies. Take a search for a simple bit of parsing code... they might know the word "concatenate" so they search for "unconcatenate" or maybe even "parse"... that probably won't get them very far because most folks post it as a "split".
Like Steve says (and I agree), folks that still don't have a clue after 300 or 400 posts aren't as likely to get a straight forward answer as those with only 10 or 15 unless they've also show some effort on their part. Most folks that post obvious laundry lists of homework, test questions, or interview questions are usually flamed out of existence in a post or two... heh... especially if the word "urgent" shows up. 😛
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 18, 2009 at 1:49 pm
What I don't like is giving them an answer without them having to work a little and help themselves. I also don't like to see the same things repeated. If I find someone that isnt' willing to do some work on their own, I'll respond that help is not forthcoming without effort.
Steve,
Absolutely, I don't think I could have said it better myself...I run into this kind of thing all the time. I see co-workers everyday that interupt other peoples work day with questions that they could find themselves with a little research and elbow grease beforehand. I don't mean to sound sexist here but a large portion of these people that do this are females. Remember ladies, reading is fundamental...
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
October 18, 2009 at 5:51 pm
I do find that quite sexist. I happen to work with a group of female developers and they work quite while and do their research. I have also worked with other ladies who were quite good as well.
I will also admit that I have worked with a few who really should have been doing something else, but I have seen both from males as well.
October 18, 2009 at 6:36 pm
No offense intended, that has just been my experience. As I stated earlier in the thread I have seen some pretty sharp female DBA's as well. Gail Shaw is a real good example of this...
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
October 18, 2009 at 7:57 pm
I agree with the others... personal experience or not, it's not something that should have been brought up because it was, in fact, sexist and inappropriate.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 18, 2009 at 8:48 pm
I'll say that I don't think that's appropriate. Denigrating an entire group is bigoted, and not necessary.
October 18, 2009 at 8:56 pm
My apologies. I did not mean to offend anyone and I am very sorry if I did.
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
October 19, 2009 at 1:48 am
talltop-969015 (10/18/2009)
Remember ladies, reading is fundamental...
<raised eyebrows> Was that really necessary?
Personally I've seen far more males than females who wouldn't open a book if their lives depended on it. Might be because IT is a male-dominated industry down here.
Still, that's generalisation of the worst form.
As I stated earlier in the thread I have seen some pretty sharp female DBA's as well. Gail Shaw is a real good example of this...
I am not a DBA. Never have been.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
October 19, 2009 at 7:05 am
GilaMonster (10/19/2009)
talltop-969015 (10/18/2009)
Remember ladies, reading is fundamental...<raised eyebrows> Was that really necessary?
Personally I've seen far more males than females who wouldn't open a book if their lives depended on it. Might be because IT is a male-dominated industry down here.
Still, that's generalisation of the worst form.
As I stated earlier in the thread I have seen some pretty sharp female DBA's as well. Gail Shaw is a real good example of this...
I am not a DBA. Never have been.
Very Hard to dig yourself out of a hole when you use a digger :-D.
Some people do have bad experiences though and if they are all similiar then... but I agree it is wrong to label an entire group, and if you do have that opinion, keep it too yourself as others might not agree with you.
IMHO there are too many topics now, where you can see the trend, where someone is totally out of their depth and you know, that you are keeping them in their job. There is a limit when the same posters post every day and it is just a rehash of the same question asked and answered yesterday.
You should never be afraid to ask for help, I would be more worried about the integrity of my databases if I worked with someone who said they were never wrong or said they had never made a mistake. as long as you can justify to yourself and management that help is needed and you do not have those type of skills, you should be ok.
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November 4, 2009 at 11:00 am
Nice article. Some of the comments are pretty interesting too.
I think there are sometimes good reasons for not bringing in those highly-paid consultants, and making do as best as you can without. Of course making do means reading the documentation and using the resources available you to get the information you need. BOL is really very good, vastly better than most DBMS documentation; together with the rest of the MSDN library doc on SQL Server it should cover most things; asking people in-house for ideas is usually a good idea; searching msdn or SQLServer Central for extra information can help; so can using the MS support forum newsgroups (but unless they now conceal your email address you need a plentiful supply of short-lived throw-away email addresses, and I gave up on them years ago because of that problem). As a last resort you can ask for help here - but I hope people would be looking for hints and pointers, not for full-blown solutions to serious operational problems.
Why might one want to avoid those highly-paid consultants? Well, several reasons:-
1) a lot of them are no use at all - they have had 2 weeks in-house training in a firm of consultants and know less about MS SQL Server than your own most junior developer.
2) a lot of them are only moderately competent, and are likely to give you very poor solutions, solutions that will not scale as you grow and/or will have a high operational cost and/or will leave enormous gaps in your security.
3) some of them are tasked by their bosses to sell you expensive and useless training rather than address your problem. (useless because the training doesn't address the problem either)
4) when your boss is wondering whether he's going to be able to pay the staff this month the last thing you want to do is stick hime with a big extra expense - it might mean that you and your team don't get paid.
5) sometimes your boss is the kind of idiot who will fire you if you admit you can't do something. That's not a problem if you are careful (I can't imagine anyone wanting to work for that sort of idiot, and most people can spot them when they go for an interview, so they never work for someone like that) but some people do get that sort of problem (and may not be in a position where they can comfortably quit the job).
Also, I think that some of the time that people try to get complete solutions from a forum like this (it doesn't just happen on DB forums, it happens in other areas too) it's caused by one of three things:
A) A boss hasn't a clue what limitations he should expect of junior, inexperienced people. (Here the solution is training - train the boss that he needs to understand the team's capabilities better and train the team members in new skills; and get in short term contractors if a quick fix is needed)
B) The person asking is overspecialised and doesn't know how to research something outside of his tiny area of specialisation. (Here the solution ought to be education, but often it's too late. A consultant or contractor may help, but the problem will recur unless education happens and actually takes.)
C) The work environment is so over-comparmentalised with walls between different functions that the problem can't be solved without an organisational change, but no-one has noticed that that is the problem. (Sometimes short-term contractors will help with this one because they will be able to get away with breaking rules that permanent staff can't).
Tom
November 4, 2009 at 11:17 am
That's a pretty well thought-out Reply Tom. Got any pointers on how to avoid these risks? (Other than not taking the job in the first place 🙂 So, when you come to the realization that you do need additional help to fill a temporary or unexpected need, what would your approach be?
Dan Guzman - Not the MVP (7/22/2010)
All questions have to be prefaced by Server version and 'according to MS Docs' or 'my own personal opinion based on how much detail I felt like digging into at the time.'
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