October 15, 2009 at 3:12 pm
wytze.sijtsma (10/15/2009)
blandry (10/15/2009)
In some ways, this is like buying a car and having some button or knob not clearly outlined in your owners manual. Imagine driving into a dealership to ask what some undocumented button does or is for, and having the dealer tell you that you need to shell out a few hundred dollars more to have some consultant answer the question. Most people would consider that an outrage if not an actual 'bait and switch' scheme.But some people buy a car and think driving lessons are included.
That is an excellent point, Silverfox makes a companion point. For a user who is inexperienced the documentation is somewhat difficult, even for use who have a lot of skills have trouble with the docs sometimes. Which is why when they include examples I usually look them over pretty close. When you are new to the technology the BOL will help but you need more, buy a book like Learn SQL in 21 Days or something. Once the basic skills are in place it is MUCH easier to read the docs and have more than a limited understanding of them. As a further point, when a poster asks a question they shouldn't necessarily expect a fully written and documented resolution for their problem, if they want that I charge by the hour..
CEWII
October 15, 2009 at 3:20 pm
John Hick-456673 (10/15/2009)
Whenever I've been 'way out of my league and have asked management to bring in a consultant, I've gotten the, "Are you SURE you want us to bring someone else in?"Meaning, "Are you SURE you want us to replace you?" Same goes for training. If I want it, I have to pay for it and take time off from work to attend it.
Awesome.
So you work for crappy employer it seems.. Sorry, that was the very first thing I thought. The second thing is that you deserve better. Let them abuse someone else.
You cannot know everything about a product like SQL Server, it is too big. Now if they want a resolution NOW, they are deciding to bring in an additional resource. If they can wait then you will have time to learn some new tricks..
The training thing is so screwed up I don't know where to start.. It is one thing to say pay for the training yourself, but entirely another another to say you need to take time off for it. WOW! Talk about not caring about investing in your staff. I don't think I could live with that for long..
Sorry, man, get out of there as soon as possible. Eject! Eject! Eject!
CEWII
October 15, 2009 at 3:43 pm
If I ever have to defend my job by withholding information/knowledge from a co-worker, or anything similar to that, I'll find another employer, or start my own business or something.
Good for you, and not everyone operates this way that I stated before, but alot do. Particularly when they have been laid off in the past after they shared their knowledge and trained a junior person that takes their job, thinking they were doing the right thing for their company. I take that has never happened to you? If it had, I have a feeling you might rethink leaving your job in the midst of double-digit unemployment and where 50% of independent business are failing within 2 years. These kind of choices aren't as easy and clear cut for other families out there right now as they seem to be for you... Look at the big picture 🙂
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
October 15, 2009 at 3:44 pm
I have left companies who have the same "my knowledge is power for me" type of mentalities. We all learn by sharing knowledge and experiences.
October 15, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Elliott W (10/15/2009)
The training thing is so screwed up I don't know where to start.. It is one thing to say pay for the training yourself, but entirely another another to say you need to take time off for it. WOW! Talk about not caring about investing in your staff. I don't think I could live with that for long..
Been there, done that. Company I used to work for had the same policy.
Got out of there as fast as possible. Wasn't just the training thing, lots of other stuff was wrong too. Last straw was when, one month after the company announced record profits for the year, my annual performance bonus amounted, before tax, to $100. It was the second-highest bonus on the IT floor. My team lead got $125.
Still, good did come of my time there, even if it took some years to materialise.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
October 15, 2009 at 3:56 pm
talltop-969015 (10/15/2009)
If I ever have to defend my job by withholding information/knowledge from a co-worker, or anything similar to that, I'll find another employer, or start my own business or something.
Good for you, and not everyone operates this way that I stated before, but alot do. Particularly when they have been laid off in the past after they shared their knowledge and trained a junior person that takes their job, thinking they were doing the right thing for their company. I take that has never happened to you? If it had, I have a feeling you might rethink leaving your job in the midst of double-digit unemployment and where 50% of independent business are failing within 2 years. These kind of choices aren't as easy and clear cut for other families out there right now as they seem to be for you... Look at the big picture 🙂
Job security is an illusion, NO MATTER WHERE YOU WORK. You talk about businesses going under, what about the ones that don't but still lay off workers, same result..
But the worse a companies internal atmosphere is the more likely there is to be a change. I worked for a company that their internal politics were so bad they didn't bother to stab you in the back, they went ahead and did it from the front. I am so glad I left that job.. If you can't find another job you are likely to stay just long enough to find one, you already have your feet out the door..
I will say that keeping things close to the vest has gotten a lot of people fired, I've seen it many times, they don't want to share, and whether they admit it or not it is because they want to retail control, but it is rarely because it is good for the business and eventually they do it too much or to the wrong person and bang! Unemployed..
CEWII
October 15, 2009 at 4:00 pm
GilaMonster (10/15/2009)
Elliott W (10/15/2009)
The training thing is so screwed up I don't know where to start.. It is one thing to say pay for the training yourself, but entirely another another to say you need to take time off for it. WOW! Talk about not caring about investing in your staff. I don't think I could live with that for long..Been there, done that. Company I used to work for had the same policy.
Got out of there as fast as possible. Wasn't just the training thing, lots of other stuff was wrong too. Last straw was when, one month after the company announced record profits for the year, my annual performance bonus amounted, before tax, to $100. It was the second-highest bonus on the IT floor. My team lead got $125.
Still, good did come of my time there, even if it took some years to materialise.
I've learned something at every company I've worked for, I've also learned what I won't accept. It has lead to some probing questions about practices when I interview. Bonus' like that are just insulting, here, we made record profits off you hard work, now go take this "token" of our appreciation to show how much we think of you.. Why thanks.. Maybe I'll get fries with what is left over..
CEWII
October 15, 2009 at 4:02 pm
I will say that keeping things close to the vest has gotten a lot of people fired, I've seen it many times, they don't want to share, and whether they admit it or not it is because they want to retail control, but it is rarely because it is good for the business and eventually they do it too much or to the wrong person and bang! Unemployed..
Oh I agree absolutely! I never said that it was right or that it was good for the company. It isn't. , I just said that it happens alot on the work place. i have seen it many times..Real world...
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
October 15, 2009 at 5:10 pm
The biggest problem I have with getting "Professional" outside help is my past bad experiences with consultants who came across as very knowlegable, but in the end couldn't deliver. Honestly, I trust the recommendations of people here more than an expensive consultant. Why? because I can see how they've approached past problems, and hard evidence of their abilities. Maybe I just don't know where to look for good consultants who are still somewhat affordable.
I recently had a performance problem crop up at a very bad time for my company, and my initial analysis of the problem indicated that it was way out of my league. Luckily I'm confident enough of my overall perceived value to the company that I didn't have to hide that fact, but when the prospect of bringing in a consultant came up my first thought was to post here. Luckily I was able to resolve the issue on my own...
-a.
Dan Guzman - Not the MVP (7/22/2010)
All questions have to be prefaced by Server version and 'according to MS Docs' or 'my own personal opinion based on how much detail I felt like digging into at the time.'
October 16, 2009 at 6:49 am
“Genius is Not Knowing All the Answers; Genius is knowing how to Find all the Answers.” -- Albert Eisenstein
October 16, 2009 at 7:29 am
talltop-969015 (10/15/2009)
If I ever have to defend my job by withholding information/knowledge from a co-worker, or anything similar to that, I'll find another employer, or start my own business or something.
Good for you, and not everyone operates this way that I stated before, but alot do. Particularly when they have been laid off in the past after they shared their knowledge and trained a junior person that takes their job, thinking they were doing the right thing for their company. I take that has never happened to you? If it had, I have a feeling you might rethink leaving your job in the midst of double-digit unemployment and where 50% of independent business are failing within 2 years. These kind of choices aren't as easy and clear cut for other families out there right now as they seem to be for you... Look at the big picture 🙂
My integrity is more important to me than my paycheck. Not everyone makes that choice, but yes, I have had to decide that, and have done exactly what I stated I would. Wasn't this exact circumstance, but was a choice between ethics and employment, and I chose ethics. Wasn't easy, but was worth it to me.
Edit: Another point on this is that working in that way (deliberately holding back on your employer and co-workers) is justification for termination all by itself, and being fired (not laid off) is usually (always?) a disqualification for unemployment. So, really, you're potentially increasing your risk of not only losing your job, but being even worse off.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
October 16, 2009 at 10:21 am
It's important to remember that while this site was created mainly for DBA's (I believe) that there are many others who have found this to be a valuable site also. So people asking questions may be well-qualified for their position but trying or needing to learn something new. So it's helpful when a responder not only points them to ways to improve their knowledge but lets them know that it's not a quick/simple topic.
Julie
October 16, 2009 at 11:10 am
I totally agree, however, this is not a sufficient reason IMHO to not do proper research beforehand, ie: like searching forums and google before posting questions....
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
October 16, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Good points and we shouldn't assume that people are all DBAs.
However I'd expect them to do some work, even if it's showing me in the post they've thought about the issue.
October 16, 2009 at 4:45 pm
It's a tough call...
First, most people don't even know they need help. That's why Microsoft put Cursors, While Loops, CLR's and other forms of RBAR in SQL Server... so that the ones that don't realize they need help don't actually have to ask for it. ;-):-P
Second, for those that do realize it, they're just flat afraid to tell their boss because it's a competitive world and if there's any chance of looking bad, most people will avoid it. Depending on the consultant's level of professionalism (lack of, really), the consultant can make you look very, very bad unless he/she really doesn't know what they're doing either... but then why would you temporarily hire one? And how would you find a good one... someone who can actually spell T-SQL? 😀
As a side bar, there are some people that deserve to look bad because they lied on their resume. 😉 Others have had SQL Server thrust upon them and have an honest struggle with it but its still real difficult for folks to drop their IT armor and ask for help... so they turn to the forums.
Now, I'll admit that it would probably help their career a lot if they GOOGLEd for that which they seek and studied and tested the many options they'll find. The problem with that is that the internet is still nothing more than a well paved on-ramp to a very ugly and long dirt road. For any given question, you might get thousands and thousand of hits and most of them can be flat out wrong or even dangerous. So, rather than sifting through the manure to see what the horse is thinking, folks just ask the horse (forums)... and I guess I can't blame them for that. 🙂
To ask to bring a "horse" (consultant) in house for a couple of days usually just isn't in the cards because of pride, budget, and job security. I honestly don't blame anyone there, either. That's why the SQL forums are thriving... people want help but are afraid to ask at work.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
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