March 7, 2018 at 9:14 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Abolish Disjointed Time
March 8, 2018 at 1:13 am
I have mixed opinions about daylight savings time.
I grew up in Ireland and Ireland is continually overcast. As a child going to school in the mornings, I really appreciated the extra hour of brightness that daylight savings time afforded.
It's the same with the car-lights, it makes a difference in the morning when it is dark outside.
Now, as a parent, daylight savings time is a nuisance. I have a child who doesn't adjust well (although it improves with age) with to the sudden change in the clock and it requires that we phase him in a week or so beforehand.
All in all, I wouldn't object to daylight savings time being abolished, but I do remember fondly the benefits it brought.
March 8, 2018 at 3:44 am
Sean Redmond - Thursday, March 8, 2018 1:13 AMI have mixed opinions about daylight savings time.
I grew up in Ireland and Ireland is continually overcast. As a child going to school in the mornings, I really appreciated the extra hour of brightness that daylight savings time afforded.
It's the same with the car-lights, it makes a difference in the morning when it is dark outside.
Now, as a parent, daylight savings time is a nuisance. I have a child who doesn't adjust well (although it improves with age) with to the sudden change in the clock and it requires that we phase him in a week or so beforehand.
All in all, I wouldn't object to daylight savings time being abolished, but I do remember fondly the benefits it brought.
One of the proposals is to keep DST permanently and abolish "normal" time. So you get the benefits of extra daylight but no more clock changes.
March 8, 2018 at 4:13 am
funbi - Thursday, March 8, 2018 3:44 AMOne of the proposals is to keep DST permanently and abolish "normal" time. So you get the benefits of extra daylight but no more clock changes.
Yes, I've heard that proposed as well. Note that you don't get any "extra" daylight, though: you get the same amount of daylight but at a slightly different time of day.
John
March 8, 2018 at 4:31 am
There have been studies that show the change doesn't help with power, and it's certainly disruptive to everyone.
I'm not so sure it is. Nobody I know struggles with it, even if some do have to rely on the "spring forward, fall back" mnemonic.
I know it seems a percentage of people are always confused and either arrive early or late every year (or twice a year) when the clocks change.
Really? That seems like the grown-up version of the "dog ate my homework" excuse. There's less reason these days for it to happen: most people have an automatically updating clock on their phone, DAB radio and/or other devices.
I'm of the opinion that we shoudl do away with DST. I get a double whammy every year the I work for a company in the UK and the US changes clocks at a different time.
Yes, that is a bit annoying. It was OK until President Bush changed the US daylight saving dates about 12 years ago. That was to do with saving energy, if I remember correctly.
There are also the adjustments to body clocks that likely slow our work and study habits.
Do people really get (the equivalent of) jetlag with a single-hour time change? I've never suffered from that. But I do look forward to the extra hour in the weekend in the autumn and feel cheated about the short weekend in the spring!
From a data perspective, the adjustments can cause issues with reporting and tracking data. Having an hour essentially repeat itself can distort any aggregation over that time period. Likewise losing an hour, especially if we use left joins to ensure each time period has a value, can look funny. I know the data issues aren't likely a big deal, after all, how much data does your company gather in the middle of Saturday night a couple times a year? Most reports probably don't bother to account for the discrepencies, and there don't seem to have been any issues I've seen from organizations. It's annoying to me as a data person, but it's probably not a significant issue.
Yes, I agree. It happens when most people are asleep, and organisations have decades of experience of dealing with it.
Ultimately I think DST is just a little silly in this modern world, where specific times, especially daylight time, seems to be less of an issue. I work when I need to, take time off when I can, and it seems more and more companies do the same thing. Whether I go to work in the light or dark, the days are shorter in the winter.
Yes, but not everybody's that lucky. Many people work fixed shifts. And of course millions of children have to get to and from school every day. I've heard arguments that it's safer for that to happen during daylight. That sounds as if it ought to be true, although I don't know whether or not the accident figures back it up.
John
March 8, 2018 at 4:41 am
John Mitchell-245523 - Thursday, March 8, 2018 4:13 AMfunbi - Thursday, March 8, 2018 3:44 AMOne of the proposals is to keep DST permanently and abolish "normal" time. So you get the benefits of extra daylight but no more clock changes.Yes, I've heard that proposed as well. Note that you don't get any "extra" daylight, though: you get the same amount of daylight but at a slightly different time of day.
John
Ok well I'm not going to get into a semantic/pedantic argument about it but I think it is quite obvious what my meaning was, as well as the meaning the phrase "extra hours of daylight" in the original post.
March 8, 2018 at 4:52 am
funbi - Thursday, March 8, 2018 4:41 AMJohn Mitchell-245523 - Thursday, March 8, 2018 4:13 AMfunbi - Thursday, March 8, 2018 3:44 AMOne of the proposals is to keep DST permanently and abolish "normal" time. So you get the benefits of extra daylight but no more clock changes.Yes, I've heard that proposed as well. Note that you don't get any "extra" daylight, though: you get the same amount of daylight but at a slightly different time of day.
John
Ok well I'm not going to get into a semantic/pedantic argument about it but I think it is quite obvious what my meaning was, as well as the meaning the phrase "extra hours of daylight" in the original post.
OK, fair enough. But the issue is that (for many, if not most, people) in summer it is indeed a benefit, whereas in winter it isn't because it gets light too late in the morning. That's why we have DST in the first place.
John
March 8, 2018 at 4:57 am
John Mitchell-245523 - Thursday, March 8, 2018 4:52 AMfunbi - Thursday, March 8, 2018 4:41 AMJohn Mitchell-245523 - Thursday, March 8, 2018 4:13 AMfunbi - Thursday, March 8, 2018 3:44 AMOne of the proposals is to keep DST permanently and abolish "normal" time. So you get the benefits of extra daylight but no more clock changes.Yes, I've heard that proposed as well. Note that you don't get any "extra" daylight, though: you get the same amount of daylight but at a slightly different time of day.
John
Ok well I'm not going to get into a semantic/pedantic argument about it but I think it is quite obvious what my meaning was, as well as the meaning the phrase "extra hours of daylight" in the original post.
OK, fair enough. But the issue is that (for many, if not most, people) in summer it is indeed a benefit, whereas in winter it isn't because it gets light too late in the morning. That's why we have DST in the first place.
John
Thank you for explaining what DST is and why we have it.
March 8, 2018 at 4:59 am
John Mitchell-245523 - Thursday, March 8, 2018 4:30 AMYes, but not everybody's that lucky. Many people work fixed shifts. And of course millions of children have to get to and from school every day. I've heard arguments that it's safer for that to happen during daylight. That sounds as if it ought to be true, although I don't know whether or not the accident figures back it up.
John
Haven't had to deal with this myself, but DST must complicate fixed shifts as well ? (If you're on shift from midnight till 8am when the clocks go back, do you work 9 hours ? You wouldn't necessarily get the hour off again when they go forward, as it may be someone else's rota on nights.)
The really messy one I've come across is working across two offices in the northern and southern hemispheres; changing to DST on different dates and in different directions.
March 8, 2018 at 6:37 am
Much of our thoughts may be shaped by geography yes how far north or south we live from the equator - from a data point of view changing the clocks useless - from a human living point of view, being in the North I appreciate the longer evening in the brief summer we have but at the same time appreciate it not being pitch dark when travelling to and from work for more than 8 weeks a year.
March 8, 2018 at 6:46 am
The hours that I work are dictated by my employer. Unlike Steve Jones, I don't have the privilege of working when I want to. During the winter, I leave home in the dark to commute to work and leave work in the dark for my commute home. I appreciate the extra hour of daylight that is available in the spring and summer. Once I retire in 2021, then whether it is EST or EDT for me won't make a difference for me. It takes a couple of days for our dogs to adjust to the time change; Zeus expects to be fed at 7 PM.
A damned dumb senator in my state has proposed legislation for South Carolina to stay in one time zone year round and a few others support him.Should SC ignore daylight saving time? Lawmakers want to look into it. Unless neighbouring states adopt the same time period, it will make travel to adjoining states confusing.
March 8, 2018 at 6:55 am
Well, I will probably alienate lots of you this morning with my thoughts about this, but so be it. In a nutshell, GET OVER IT! There are so many more important things in this world and in our employment lives to deal with that this seems to be so trivial. We're trained and employed to handle 'problems', not fret about them.
About the child mentioned: 'Now, as a parent, daylight savings time is a nuisance. I have a child who doesn't adjust well (although it improves with age) with to the sudden change in the clock and it requires that we phase him in a week or so beforehand.' Unless there is a defined medical or emotional condition, ( I have a fair amount of background in social and psychological studies and have never heard mention of such a condition), you just might be raising a 'snowflake'.
So, are you telling me that if you want to get an early start on your driving vacation that you would not do so, just to let that child sleep longer? If you need to catch an early flight, you feel you can't set the alarm an hour earlier in order to deal with it? As a parent, you better be able to handle a hissy fit periodically, or you won't make it.
I'm sitting here reading my emails this morning with my wife who just turned 75 years old yesterday, and who is a double leg amputee due to a tragic health situation three yeas ago. She's able to get up every day and carry on her life, preparing meals for us, having a full social life, and going shopping with our daughter-in-law. And in the summertime she's out riding a 4-wheeler in the mountains with our friends. She certainly isn't sweating the small stuff.
DST has worked for decades now and in my 42 years in IT it was never a problem, unless of course somebody screwed up handling it, much the same as other quirks we were supposed to handle in our functions.
So now that I've made you all mad at me, it's time for more coffee.
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
March 8, 2018 at 6:58 am
This will go round and round. The way you feel about it depends on where you live and how you live and who you need to deal with.
If you live at the equator, then day-light-saving-time (or whatever it is called in your neck of the woods) is unnecessary and irrelevant. If you live at either of the poles, then again dst is irrelevant. The problem is in the temperate zones (that includes Europe and most of North America) where the hours of daylight don't just get longer and shorter with the seasons, they "shift" relative to the clock. The problem gets more noticeable the further you get from the equator. Nearer the Arctic circle you get "white nights" in the summer and the long dark winter nights.
If you live entirely by the sun (no clock or watch) then clock time is pretty much irrelevant to you. This might apply to some farmers (because animals live mostly "by the sun") but even then, someone has to drive the milk tanker. If you live and work out of sight of the sun (submarines, mines and some industries) then you can live entirely by the clock. You can use any time you like, not matter where you are in the world.
The problems arise when you have to deal with people who are doing something different, especially around the time your (or their) clocks change and worse if they are in a different time zone. Locally daylight-saving messes up the elapsed time for the two change-over nights (clocks forward, and clocks back). One night-shift gains an hour, one loses an hour. Bean-counters and accountants get upset about "productivity" and either hourly rates or wages paid peaking or troughing on the nights in question.
I agree that changing the clocks is a pain. I lived through the "British Standard Time" (GMT+1 GMT=Greenwich Mean Time) experiment. In the south of Britain it was just a bit strange (in the winter going to school in the dark), in the north of Scotland it was distinctly unpleasant. My guess is there would be similar problems if Britain (for example) stuck with GMT (the winter time) all the year round.
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March 8, 2018 at 7:10 am
I wonder if in the age of computers it could be possible to do away with time zones and return to the time when noon at a location was when the sun was directly overhead. With the speed of trains it became impossible to publish schedules that had the correct times for each location. I suppose with the need to standardize other things that have come along since, like TV schedules, would still make it impossible to return to the old days.
If that's the case, when the days lengthen, I prefer taking an hour of daylight that would occur while most people are still sleeping and moving it to a time of day when most are awake. This might be more important as you move farther north from the equator.
March 8, 2018 at 7:26 am
I agree with Steve about abolishing daylight savings; either leave it sprung forward or let it fall back and stay but either way I'm in favor of not moving the clocks anymore. There's even some real medical reasons to support such a move. Health.com reported that heart attacks and strokes rise during the time changes. If their findings are accurate, the matter isn't trivial or inconsequential, stopping the change could save lives. Though I'd be curious to see corresponding data from Hawaii or Arizona who don't shift and see if the rates stay down.
- http://www.health.com/sleep/daylight-saving-time-health-risks
Data wise however, storing time in UTC, while having some of its own pros and cons, solves the daylight savings shift. For many reports and applications UTC is already required to support displaying time in the user's local time zone rather than the server's.
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