October 23, 2007 at 3:39 pm
I forgot to say that I worked at IBM less than a year but have had many computer related jobs since. Having a degree seemed to help getting jobs, but was also able to tout a Math Major / Computer Science Minor at a college that I didn't get a degree at.
Currently work in local government. Worked over 10 years as a Micro Systems Specialist (included programming against dBase III+) and over 10 years as a GIS DBA (sent to Informix training and eventually moved to Sql-Server).
Steve
October 24, 2007 at 5:23 am
webrunner (10/23/2007)
Jereme Guenther (10/19/2007)
I don't know how or if you have time to read all of these posts, but here are my stats.I obtained a BS in Software Engineering picking up a few misc certs along the way. Prior to getting my BA I almost finished my associates but transfered colleges a few courses away. I was really disappointed. I realize a degree means less and less the longer one is in the work force, but I like the "recognition" of the piece of paper, even if a computer is the only one who will ever see or care about it.
Jereme
Thanks for your comments! As others have mentioned, people in each situation (degree or no degree) will tend to emphasize the aspects of each that can indicate success.
I think that criticism of degrees regarding the workforce and/or work aptitude reflect the deficiencies in the way many schools teach subjects rather than any inherent weakness in the idea of a degree itself. I bet if there were not an aversion to "vocational" skills in many schools, more people would emerge from programs better prepared for the real world.
And, for better or worse, it seems that many schools consider real-world computer skills vocational in relation to the sometimes arcane theory that is taught. I've seen too many Java textbooks that omit testing, documentation, and error handling topics since they consider those topics peripheral to the main discussions on syntax and data structures. Obviously, omitting testing, documentation, and error handling is not a real-world situation!!
Not that theory is bad - it is essential to have some grounding in the theory behind programming and computers - but I think there is probably a way to balance theory and practice in a way that more schools haven't done because they are afraid of not appearing elite enough.
I think the best thing would be to have a degree program that combined database theory with heavy immersion in real-world stuff like DBA work, installing and maintaining SQL, backups, monitoring, confronting ugly slow SQL written by others (and also by oneself 🙂 ), etc., etc. Something like a 3-2 cooperative program with 3 years of school and 2 years of real-world work with a real DBA (or developer) mentor.
webrunner
I agree that more... most, of the emphasis should be on real world methodologies. The one thing that does come to mind about this was the nuclear power progam in the Navy. They sent us to a six month nuclear theory school where we studied physics, heat transfer and fluid flow and other subjects that ultimately had no bearing on running a steam power plant. But they wanted us to understand the tools we had in our control and how they worked, not simply that they did work. Even though it was applicable to the immediate job, it gave one a great deal of confidence that you understood how and why things were the way they were.
I think database theory can be like that. Very seldom do I sweat Codd's theories, but the understanding of them defines database design. I don't frequently worry about page distribution on my system, but knowing something of it, makes a difference in the indexes I choose to apply to tables. Theory makes a good foundation. Unfortunately lots of people, mainly in big name schools, think that theory is the end game.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
October 24, 2007 at 6:09 am
Conversely, lots of people think theory has no place in the game.
It helps.
October 24, 2007 at 6:28 am
Steve Jones - Editor (10/24/2007)
Conversely, lots of people think theory has no place in the game.It helps.
Agreed. I did, amoung other courses, compiler theory, 2 forms of assembler, low-level networking and relational theory at university. I may not use them practically every day, but they do come in handy for understanding reasons behind events.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
October 24, 2007 at 7:03 am
After reading most of the other posts, it seems I am out of the norm. I graduated in 93 with a BS in Computer Science and have been working in the IT field ever since.
One story: After college, I thought I knew everything. Then I got my first job with an experienced programmer. He ran circles around me and knocked me down a few pegs. Fortunately I learned very quickly that a college degree was no substitute for work experience.
I think I received a good college education, but I think it is not possible to cover all the aspects of the IT field. I see that the college I graduated from now has 3 flavors of computer science degrees, each concentrating on a different aspect of the computer field.
October 24, 2007 at 12:34 pm
It's not theory or practice. It's theory and practice.
It's not education vs experience. Some of us just got our education at work. The combination is best. One of the things that the educational experience (college) gives you is the ability to do critical thinking. You learn to do research, building on the published works of others. You learn to prepare presentations. To "stand and deliver". You learn how to conduct experiments.
Those are all valuable skills. I, for one, could care less whether you got those skills in a prestigious university or as a prize in a cereal box. So long as you have the skills and can use them.
I have been quoted as saying "programmers know how to write while analysts know what to write". I'll take people who are good in music or have multiple languages and teach them how to code in short order. They already have the skills to translate the things expressed in the requirements into the computer code.
One of our top developers, who left to take a better job, had an interesting previous job. He came to us after being a meter reader for the city water department. Now, he had done a full hitch in the Army. His military background along with his schooling made him good.
ATBCharles Kincaid
September 10, 2011 at 8:01 am
Came across this a couple of years late. Didn't see it when it first came out (befoe Ijoined SQLS Central). Saw it now because it's linked from Steve's editorial yesterday.
I had an MA in maths and an MS in mathematical logic when I got came into the IT industry, haing played with computers (some of them programmed using old-style spaghetti-boards, others rather more modern) a bit in vacation jobs and as a hobby during my MS research. Found myself learning a lot of CS, attending seminars, interacting a lot with academics, and somehow mutated gradually from mathematician via software engineer to computer scientist, but never took a degree in CS.
I've found both maths and CS extremely useful both in developing things and in being able to communicate ideas. I could have done with having more queuing theory in my maths course, not being aware it was applicable to some of what I was doing in about 1972 resulted in some pain (and in me becoming an expert on that part of mathematics), but it isn't possible to learn the whole of mathematics in a degree course.
Tom
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