July 17, 2011 at 8:14 pm
No problem. I'll send you my leftovers. 😀
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
July 19, 2011 at 11:29 am
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
No problem. I'll send you my leftovers. 😀
It's not about leftovers, its about defining and narrowing down what our priority needs are from a DBA here at the shop. SQL Server is a comprehensive and massive subject. Query writing is just a piece of it, and it is not always the particular priority that needs to be filled at any one company. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
July 19, 2011 at 11:56 am
TravisDBA (7/17/2011)
opc.three (7/17/2011)
TravisDBA (7/17/2011)
I agree that being able to write decent queries and to read others' code is #2 on the list of talent for System DBA's... it's just a mandatory item on the list for me. 😀
If T-SQL query skills is really important for people, and I have heard that in interviews myself. My response to that, is "If expert query skills are that crucial for this position, then maybe you need to hire a database developer, instead of a Database Admnistrator." However, everyone today wants their cake and eat it too...and that's just fine in an ideal world. I have often said many times in the past in the IT industry. "This is NOT Burger King, you can't always get what you want when you want it ..we are not slapping burgers together here..." However, that mentality is still rampant in this business though. I see it everyday...:-D
I get the "cake and eat it too" bit...my favorite is the 2011 job requirement asking for 7+ years of experience administrating SQL Server 2008 databases 😛
That said, I would not want to work elbow-to-elbow with a DBA that did not have a solid set of T-SQL skills. I'm not saying all DBAs have to be able to write application code but working with DMV/DMFs, doing code reviews, writing admin scripts to do things like take backups, reading metadata, looking at execution plans...you're telling me there is a SQL Server DBA that does not need solid T-SQL skills?!? Seriously?!? If they're just provisioning disk, or doing base installs and then passing it to the next person in the assembly line, maybe, but how many of these jobs exist? Not as many as the do-it-all DBA that has to, well, do-it-all and be proficient at many aspects of SQL Server.
I never said that a DBA did not need the T-SQL skillset. As I said before, for the third time, it is part of the job, It's just not at the top of my hit list. RIF people. 😀
I have to agree with this. T-SQL skill is definitely a necessity for DB Admin jobs, but skill level in it isn't as crucial as a lot of other database related positions.
It doesn't take serious T-SQL skill to write a cursor that will step through databases and do the right backup action on each one, instead of one of the junk Maintenance Plan jobs. It takes some knowledge of it, but not serious skill.
It also doesn't take serious T-SQL skill to find queries that are causing expensive wait-states on your server, and tell the devs "stored proc A needs tuning". It takes some skill, and serious knowledge of performance stats, traces, DMVs, et al, but not T-SQL skills. It's just relatively simple Select From Where skills for those things, at the T-SQL point.
If the DB Admin will be doing the actual query tuning himself, that's a different question entirely. But that's not DB Admin. That's "Lead Database Developer" or some such.
I'm used to be a company's "one-stop database shop", so I have to have all of those skills, but I recognize that I'm wearing a lot of hats and act accordingly.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
July 19, 2011 at 12:01 pm
GSquared (7/19/2011)
...truncated...If the DB Admin will be doing the actual query tuning himself, that's a different question entirely. But that's not DB Admin. That's "Lead Database Developer" or some such.
...
I concede I may be blurring the line a bit and bending the definition of a DBA, maybe because the do-it-all-DBA has been so commonplace at my stops, but for my money a DBA should have these skills.
There are no special teachers of virtue, because virtue is taught by the whole community.
--Plato
July 19, 2011 at 12:04 pm
opc.three (7/19/2011)
GSquared (7/19/2011)
...truncated...If the DB Admin will be doing the actual query tuning himself, that's a different question entirely. But that's not DB Admin. That's "Lead Database Developer" or some such.
...
I concede I may be blurring the line a bit and bending the definition of a DBA, maybe because the do-it-all-DBA has been so commonplace at my stops, but for my money a DBA should have these skills.
Since "DBA" is pretty much defined by most businesses as "The witch doctor who does stuff with our data through voodoo and black magic, casting spells in an arcane language called 'T-SQL' to outsiders but probably having a much more sinister, secret name to its practitioners", I can't fault you on that one. 😛
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
July 19, 2011 at 7:14 pm
TravisDBA (7/19/2011)
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
No problem. I'll send you my leftovers. 😀It's not about leftovers, its about defining and narrowing down what our priority needs are from a DBA here at the shop. SQL Server is a comprehensive and massive subject. Query writing is just a piece of it, and it is not always the particular priority that needs to be filled at any one company. 😀
Sorry Travis... I apologize for being a bit difficult on the subject but the only thing that I can say I truly agree with you about on this subject is that we disagree with each other. 🙂
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
July 20, 2011 at 5:53 am
Jeff Moden (7/19/2011)
TravisDBA (7/19/2011)
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
No problem. I'll send you my leftovers. 😀It's not about leftovers, its about defining and narrowing down what our priority needs are from a DBA here at the shop. SQL Server is a comprehensive and massive subject. Query writing is just a piece of it, and it is not always the particular priority that needs to be filled at any one company. 😀
Sorry Travis... I apologize for being a bit difficult on the subject but the only thing that I can say I truly agree with you about on this subject is that we disagree with each other. 🙂
There's only 1 question left. Would you still hire me to work under you?.. that's all I really care about atm :hehe:.
July 20, 2011 at 6:02 pm
Jeff Moden (7/19/2011)
TravisDBA (7/19/2011)
Jeff Moden (7/17/2011)
No problem. I'll send you my leftovers. 😀It's not about leftovers, its about defining and narrowing down what our priority needs are from a DBA here at the shop. SQL Server is a comprehensive and massive subject. Query writing is just a piece of it, and it is not always the particular priority that needs to be filled at any one company. 😀
Sorry Travis... I apologize for being a bit difficult on the subject but the only thing that I can say I truly agree with you about on this subject is that we disagree with each other. 🙂
No problem Jeff., There is absolutely nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone, as long as you don't blindly attack them for what they believe, which you did not. That shows maturity, and many on this forum could learn from this. As the old saying goes: “If you resist reading what you disagree with, how will you ever acquire deeper insights into what you believe?" Different points of view tend to enlighten us all. It's all how one looks at it. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
July 20, 2011 at 9:32 pm
Ninja's_RGR'us (7/20/2011)
There's only 1 question left. Would you still hire me to work under you?.. that's all I really care about atm :hehe:.
Only if you wouldn't mind working "down under". 😀 The bad part about finally working my way down (I used to be a Director of MIS) to where I really wanted to be at (Lead Application DBA) is that I don't control the purse strings anymore.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
July 20, 2011 at 9:34 pm
Travis, you're a gentleman and a scholar. Thanks for agreeing to disagree.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
July 21, 2011 at 5:07 am
Jeff Moden (7/20/2011)
Ninja's_RGR'us (7/20/2011)
There's only 1 question left. Would you still hire me to work under you?.. that's all I really care about atm :hehe:.Only if you wouldn't mind working "down under". 😀 The bad part about finally working my way down (I used to be a Director of MIS) to where I really wanted to be at (Lead Application DBA) is that I don't control the purse strings anymore.
Oh darn. I know what to ask Santa this year :-D.
And that dude that lives in the north pole too!
August 3, 2011 at 7:50 pm
Hi hi,
I am the inexperience so called DBA (in my job title again). You said you need lead developer for tuning, in my very first job where I was trained to take over the sole DBA I am expect to do installation, monitoring, administration, ad hoc t-sql and the alien task - performance tuning. I knew how to start the trace but when I was ask which is the problematic one being in a role that I've no experience in before doesn't help.
August 4, 2011 at 5:29 am
Lee San (8/3/2011)
Hi hi,I am the inexperience so called DBA (in my job title again). You said you need lead developer for tuning, in my very first job where I was trained to take over the sole DBA I am expect to do installation, monitoring, administration, ad hoc t-sql and the alien task - performance tuning. I knew how to start the trace but when I was ask which is the problematic one being in a role that I've no experience in before doesn't help.
There are some good articles and series here on SQLServerCentral about how to analyze execution plans, profile traces, and data management views. Getting thrown into the fire with no peers to turn to for advice is not the best way to learn. It's better to learn from someone elses mistakes and benefit from their shared experience and knowledge.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
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