June 30, 2011 at 3:01 pm
djackson 22568 (6/30/2011)
Not only that, but employers tend to talk about valuing teamwork, but do everything they can to destroy it. Best example - everyone gets the same raise, whether they take 20 breaks a day for a cigarette or work 80 hours a week.
We've worked together? 😉
Seriously though? There's another side to the teamwork thing. Learn why we did things before you go off trying to change the world. There's reasons we chose to do things like this and believe it or not, we're not complete idiots. You've got an innovation that can help a team, I've rarely met one that wasn't willing to discuss an intelligent alternative. Be prepared to defend your idea rather then 5 people who already know the challenges doing a facepalm and going "Why didn't WE think of that?!"
Not that it doesn't occur, just not as often as a lot of new people's egos THINK it should. The way you did it at your last job is NOT the only way to do things.
You guys bash folks looking for someone who will conform first, and change after. Sorry, I have to disagree. Until you've meshed into their fold you don't understand the reasons behind their choices. Teamwork means a lot more then 'Bend Over'. It also means don't screw your team-mates because you've decided you were the god of the SQL and go off on a half-assed tear through the coding wilderness.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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June 30, 2011 at 3:20 pm
Craig Farrell (6/30/2011)
You guys bash folks looking for someone who will conform first, and change after. Sorry, I have to disagree. Until you've meshed into their fold you don't understand the reasons behind their choices.
I'm definitely on board with these statements Craig...it's after you have blended and have a grip on the environment when the rubber meets the road and you really find out what management is about.
Back to the topic at hand...I think it's damn near impossible to get at this info in the context of an interview process.
There are no special teachers of virtue, because virtue is taught by the whole community.
--Plato
June 30, 2011 at 8:42 pm
OCTom (6/30/2011)
Teamwork is overrated. I think the skillset and the willingness to learn new skills is more important. I have yet to see an employer value teamwork highly. They speak highly of teamwork but really don't have any idea of how to implement it.I always love the job ads that state two exact opposites:
1. Must be a team player.
2. Must work independently.
Although the two phrases certainly seem to be diametric opposites, they are not. I can also tell you that (depending, of course) Teamwork isn't overrated. My current job is one of the best jobs I've ever had and, oddly enough, requires both Items 1 and 2 above.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
July 1, 2011 at 7:23 am
Back to the topic at hand...I think it's damn near impossible to get at this info in the context of an interview process.
Innit. Having been on both sides I can see how flawed the whole interview process is. It is so hard to get a good grip on someone's skills and personality from one forced 30 minute conversation. There's always a huge risk in taking on staff because of it, but I don't think there is any other way.
Some of the technical tests I've been set have been totally wrong as well. Last interview I went for they sent me a very good test to do before offering an interview, all to do with analysing data and focusing on the results rather then the process. You know, just like in the real world.
So I goes into the interview, and the guy says "Now we want you to do a handwritten test, and you'd have had all those resources such as the internet when you did the other one." You mean just like I would when I was at work then.
The test was then all about my memory, what's the syntax for this command and that one etc. Even asked about cursors. I've spent the last five years removing cursors from other people's code, I don't remember off the top of my head how to write one. Grrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry for the rant. I nicked the decent test when we were interviewing where I am now, but insisted we did not use a hand written test afterwards.
July 1, 2011 at 7:44 am
Jeff Moden (6/30/2011)
OCTom (6/30/2011)
Teamwork is overrated. I think the skillset and the willingness to learn new skills is more important. I have yet to see an employer value teamwork highly. They speak highly of teamwork but really don't have any idea of how to implement it.I always love the job ads that state two exact opposites:
1. Must be a team player.
2. Must work independently.
Although the two phrases certainly seem to be diametric opposites, they are not. I can also tell you that (depending, of course) Teamwork isn't overrated. My current job is one of the best jobs I've ever had and, oddly enough, requires both Items 1 and 2 above.
Frequently I make comments like Tom (1st guy) only to be corrected by someone like Jeff (2nd guy - if I got the names reversed I apologize). It can be frustrating. Sometimes making a point can be difficult and the example may not fit every situation.
While it is true that these MAY NOT be opposites, for most managers they are. Most managers expect employees to sit in a cube, don't bother your teammates because they have work to do. Yet when what you do doesn't work well with the work others created, you aren't a team.
Another example, you need to work independently. Your system has an issue. You are not allowed to work with others to determine the cause, because you must work by yourself. Your system connects to theirs. The issue is in the communication between them. Your boss wants independent work, you can't call the vendor of the other system, that is for the other guy to do. So the two people responsible both end up calling vendors (working together) but due to expectations can't be on the calls together. I see this all the time. What should be a 5 minute fix isn't allowed because teamwork means "explain" what is wrong and have them handle it, instead of get together and figure it out. Why can't they get together, because they need to independently resolve another issue, we don't need to waste time having you both together on one issue.
If your boss if intelligent enough to manage this correctly, great, but most aren't.
Dave
July 1, 2011 at 7:49 am
Freddie-304292 (7/1/2011)
Back to the topic at hand...I think it's damn near impossible to get at this info in the context of an interview process.
Innit. Having been on both sides I can see how flawed the whole interview process is. It is so hard to get a good grip on someone's skills and personality from one forced 30 minute conversation. There's always a huge risk in taking on staff because of it, but I don't think there is any other way.
There is a way. See my previous posts on companies unwillingness to spend money to make the right decision, because short term profits matter more than doing it right.
I interviewed for a consulting position years ago. There were 5 levels of workers/managers. I interviewed with a few workers, a few team leads, a couple project managers. I then met with virtually every person at the next two levels, project executives and partners, that had anything to do with the division I was going to work for. They gave me real life examples of issues that had arisen, and asked me how I would fix them. It was a grueling process, took 2 FULL DAYS, but in the end, they knew what they were getting.
So the other way is to spend the time and money to make sure. I know you can't do that with 1,000 applicants, but you can do it with the final 2, 3 or 5. Is it worth it, you bet.
Dave
July 1, 2011 at 7:59 am
Might be hard to get people who are already in work to give up two full days for an interview though. You could lose good people that way.
July 1, 2011 at 8:21 am
Freddie-304292 (7/1/2011)
Might be hard to get people who are already in work to give up two full days for an interview though. You could lose good people that way.
There is such a thing as weekends and evenings. I like the idea of emphasizing a candidates knowledge Vs. how astute she/she might be at interviewing (after all, if you go on enough interviews you get pretty good at it!)
I think most highly experienced and competent people would not be intimidated at all by a perspective employer taking time to probe their knowledge.
The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival.
July 1, 2011 at 8:41 am
sturner (7/1/2011)
Freddie-304292 (7/1/2011)
Might be hard to get people who are already in work to give up two full days for an interview though. You could lose good people that way.There is such a thing as weekends and evenings. I like the idea of emphasizing a candidates knowledge Vs. how astute she/she might be at interviewing (after all, if you go on enough interviews you get pretty good at it!)
I think most highly experienced and competent people would not be intimidated at all by a perspective employer taking time to probe their knowledge.
Personally I would turn down any company that expected me to work weekends before they were even paying me. Some of us have lives, you know 😉
Seriously, if they expect you to jump through that many hoops, I wouldn't bother. If it became the norm and there was no other choice, or if I was unemployed, maybe. But there's plenty of jobs out there that don't expect you to give up two days of your life to see if they want you, so why would I go through all that just for some dumb company that thinks its more important then anyone else. They'd want to be offering me a serious pay rise to give them that much of my time.
I really hope nothing like that ever becomes the norm. Life really is too short to have to put that amount of effort to getting a job.
July 1, 2011 at 9:01 am
Freddie-304292 (7/1/2011)
Personally I would turn down any company that expected me to work weekends before they were even paying me. Some of us have lives, you know 😉
Dude... calm down and re-read my post. I was referring to the interview... in response to an earlier comment regarding one's potential inability to take a day off from work to go on a day long interview.
Unwillingness to make extra time and effort for an interview with a perspective employer who is very interested in hiring the best person may be telling about ones's capabilities and character.
The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival.
July 1, 2011 at 9:11 am
Unwillingness to make extra time and effort for an interview with a perspective employer who is very interested in hiring the best person may be telling about ones's capabilities and character.
Capabilities, no. Character, sure.
But I know I wouldn't fit in with any company that expected people to come in for a full day interview, and would turn them down flat. Remember you're interviewing the company, too, and if they have such little regard for your time that they'd expect you to give up a whole day for an interview, do you really want to work for them. I wouldn't.
July 1, 2011 at 9:18 am
Freddie-304292 (7/1/2011)
But I know I wouldn't fit in with any company that expected people to come in for a full day interview, and would turn them down flat. Remember you're interviewing the company, too, and if they have such little regard for your time that they'd expect you to give up a whole day for an interview, do you really want to work for them. I wouldn't.
Pretty confident... when you have a job. Lets see if you would still "turn them down flat" if you didn't have a job, or knew you job was going away in 3 months.
The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival.
July 1, 2011 at 9:36 am
sturner (7/1/2011)
Freddie-304292 (7/1/2011)
But I know I wouldn't fit in with any company that expected people to come in for a full day interview, and would turn them down flat. Remember you're interviewing the company, too, and if they have such little regard for your time that they'd expect you to give up a whole day for an interview, do you really want to work for them. I wouldn't.
Pretty confident... when you have a job. Lets see if you would still "turn them down flat" if you didn't have a job, or knew you job was going away in 3 months.
I did say earlier I'd go if I was unemployed. But that was also part of the point I'm making. Do you only want people who are desperate enough/have enough free time to give up an entire day or two for an interview. Not necessarily going to guarantee you the best person for the job any more then the traditional hour long interview we all expect to have to make time for when looking for a job.
July 1, 2011 at 9:41 am
sturner (7/1/2011)
Freddie-304292 (7/1/2011)
Personally I would turn down any company that expected me to work weekends before they were even paying me. Some of us have lives, you know 😉Dude... calm down.
Huh? Not sure why you felt he was attacking you... Note the smile.
I can say, a lot of companies are now having people come in and work without paying them. They sell it as "let's see if we fit for you", when in reality it is free labor. I view it as illegal, but so many people are out of work that they are willing to put up with all kinds of abuse for a job.
All I can say is what comes around goes around. Abuse employees, and we all know employee theft increases. Companies that think they can get away with violating the law eventually see it come back to haunt them.
We all need to remember our experiences affect our views. Most, if not all of us feel strongly about something because it affected us in the past. Kind of the "walk a mile in their shoes" scenario.
Dave
July 1, 2011 at 9:46 am
All I can say is what comes around goes around. Abuse employees, and we all know employee theft increases. Companies that think they can get away with violating the law eventually see it come back to haunt them.
It's also a sure fire way to lose all you're decent staff.
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