January 25, 2008 at 10:24 am
Michael Ross (1/25/2008)
Plain and simple...If you didn't work for the money, it is (still) not yours.
I wish I could see it so simply. In the beginning, yes, I agree, but I have a pessimistic attitude towards people. I've had too many situations where large institutions make mistakes, but refuse to admit it. What then? Somehow, we give them far more lattitude than we give the individual.
Ah yes, situational ethics.
In the end, we will be called to account for our own actions, not the actions of others. "What is my responsibility in this situation, what is the right thing to do?" should be the question, not what would someone else or some corportation do in this situation.
January 25, 2008 at 10:32 am
The scenario in the article happened to me a few years ago. I was working at an oil company that was bought out by BP. I remained employed for a few months while they laid off employees, but I finally decided to not accept a position in the "new" company and instead to go work for a small internet development consulting company.
I received my past paycheck and thought everything was good...until two weeks later when I received yet another paycheck.
I'm sure I could've kept the money quite easily, and I had several bills to pay, but I went down to the local BP office and gave back the check. There's no sense in trying to keep the money; it's dishonest and it WILL come back to bite you at some point.
January 25, 2008 at 10:39 am
Steve nailed it. It is each individual's responsibility to do the right thing. The money's not yours no matter how you slice it.
However, it gets a bit gray if you bring the mistake to their attention and they still do nothing. In that case, I would inform them in writing (prabably more than once) of the mistake and how to contact me for the return of the money. I would then find out what the statute of limitations is for such a "crime" and put the money in an interest-bearing account for that amount of time.
If they don't resolve it in that time, then I'd say it's time for a party.:D
January 25, 2008 at 10:59 am
I have to be able to sleep at night.
I haven't had an employer error like that, and in 1981 I found $1200 in my savings account, almost a month's (tax free) income. I went to the bank and let them know. They were thankful as they would not have been able to find the money (manual processes) and would have had to pay the person whose money it actually was.
I cannot imagine a person getting paid (in error) a salary for a month, never mind 5 years, and not noticing it!
"Victimless" crimes usually mean we all shoulder the burden a little to compensate, so I judge there are really more victims for those. And, since I like my money, the money I have traded a portion of my life for, I resent paying for people who want to take advantage of me.
Michael
January 25, 2008 at 11:10 am
Returnign the money could be difficult unless properly documented. I.e. you don't want to come to April 15th (or morelikely sometime in July) and have IRS come knocking on your door wanting their share of the money. I would make real sure (for large amounts anyhow) that you had it properly documented. If they could pay you when you were not expected, nothing to stop them from also reporting it as income....
January 25, 2008 at 11:19 am
I really don't understand how this could have gone on for as long as it did. You've got the budgeting process, the performance review process, HR sending out insurance forms. LOTS of people had to have dropped the ball for this to continue for five years.
The money was not his to keep. Period. If he'd not been greedy and tried to raid the retirement fund, the morons would probably be still sending him checks. If he'd shunted them into an interest-earning account or CD's, and waited until the statute of limitations had elapsed, he'd've been home free.
He was caught as so many criminals are: stupidity and greed.
Myself, I couldn't do that. There's no way that I could not notice some $8,000 a month appearing in my checking account. As others have pointed out, I couldn't sleep with myself knowing that I was committing that sort of fraud.
Sometimes having ethics and morals suck. 😀
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[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]
January 25, 2008 at 11:28 am
Sometimes having ethics and morals suck. 😀
They don't suck; they guard you against future troubling issues. You can have immediate pleasure now and pay royally later, or you can eliminate those future troubles in the present by following your morals. To me, that's an easy decision. 😛
January 25, 2008 at 11:51 am
JJ B - You're right - I realized I was out of line, and deleted my post. I apologize.
(Your comment triggered a personal reaction from me - I have heard people use the excuse that they "didn't realize" when they knew full well.)
The person in question in this forum let this go on for 5 years - they knew darn well what they were doing, and it was wrong - even before they tried to get something out of the retirement fund. It's stealing - plain and simple.
Also, I'm surprised at how many people report that the company (in their own personal experiences) didn't follow through to resolve the issue. Are they just trying to sweep their mistake under the rug?
January 25, 2008 at 12:26 pm
OK let me add a different scenario that if know to be true, BUT this is not about me I hasten to add… I pay huge amounts in gas and electricity every month ?
You move house and you tell the gas company that you’ve moved, give them all your details and contact info including direct debit info, you ask them to bill you monthly etc. A month goes by no bill, a second month no bill, so you call them and they take a meter reading from you and say they’ll send you a bill and start debiting your account… two months later still no bill and no account payment. So you call again same thing, no bill no payment. Your try once more (a fourth time) nearly a year has passed and still nothing yet you keep getting gas. Ten years passes and you forget about the gas bill, nobody contacts you, you have contacted them 4 times with no joy would you expect to pay the 10 year outstanding bill if they ever work out what happened?
Because it’s not the customers fault, I think he has tried his best, it’s the Gas companies and I think they should ‘pay’ for their own incompetence not the innocent customer 10 years later.
Gethyn Elliswww.gethynellis.com
January 25, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Ellis, nice one.
I'm a big karma believer and I'd do what sing4you said. Put it in a separate account, make efforts to return it, and let it sit. Preferably an escrow account.
The tax issue is an interesting one. If they sent you a W-2, what do you do? You'd probably not have a lot of success convincing the IRS that you weren't paid and didn't owe taxes. So do you pay the taxes out of that account? Reduce that amount you'd owe Avaya back? That might be your only choice if this was a mistake they wouldn't correct.
January 25, 2008 at 4:57 pm
Carla: Thanks for your second reply. I appreciate it.
I'm a big believer in thinking through ethical issues and behaving ethically at all times. Period. If a retailer accidentally gives me even a penny more than they should and if I catch it, I return the money instantly.
At the same time, I was reacting to several posts about how simple and clean cut the issue is. I think they are wrong about that. The example in question seems pretty clean cut, but the one example is not as interesting as general principle discussions. Every situation is a little different. I was trying to show that the general principle is not as clean cut as people put it, and I think the natural gas example is another great example. I have others.
I agree that it is very strange that an organization wouldn't do everything it could to fix the problem once it was brought to their attention.
January 28, 2008 at 6:29 am
You would have to be a idiot to spend the money! I would call my Credit Union. Tell them to quarantine/isolate all funds from the source from intermingling with my accounts. Simultaneously I would contact the company and tell them how they are retards. And tell them to contact my Credit Union on resolution of the matter.
I would help rectify the problem to the best of my abilities.
Joe Frisco
January 29, 2008 at 9:07 am
Deliberately accepting money that someone clearly did not intend to give is wrong. Period. The faulty system is a moot point. It is sad how people are so eager to opportunistically take advantage of somebody's mistake/weakeness.
Might as well just take the money left on the table by another customer, since the waiter hadn't come around to pick it up yet.
The melody of logic will always play out the truth ~ Narumi Ayumu, Spiral
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