November 17, 2016 at 8:21 am
djackson 22568 (11/17/2016)
peter.row (11/17/2016)
djackson 22568 (11/17/2016)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (11/16/2016)
Comments posted to this topic are about the item <A HREF="/articles/Editorial/149105/">A Joke Come True</A>Good decision? I think so. Microsoft is destroying the Windows platform. Touch screen OS for a server? Did they forget that there are technical people who make a living supporting servers? Do they really think that consumers can manage a data center?
Maybe when Windows dies in the data center, this will be one product that survives.
Strong opinion, I know, but a lot of people are sick and tired of MS chasing Apple - what happened to the days when they innovated and developed unique, quality products.
So being able to develop apps that scale to desktop/laptop/tablet/mobile/xbox with 1 deployment is not innovative? Can Apple do that with what they currently have? No they can't.
I don't think MS are chasing anything. For those hating the tiles of Server 2012/R2 install start8 or something, job done. Probably Server 2016 or whatever they call it will have the Windows 10 UI that blends and works both ways with easy. I've never tried it but what if you RDP'd to a server using a device with touch screen? Wouldn't the touch work then? Thus the we never go into the server room thing falls flat on it's face.
My post was not about Apple, it was about MS failings. However, maybe you need to try some Apple products, clearly you aren't aware of their capabilities.
Do you work in an organization that has a data center? We allow more access than most, and again, almost nobody goes in there. There isn't a reason to. I also don't know any engineer who uses a touch screen. Most of us use a keyboard as it is about 100 times faster. I don't have time to use a touch screen, what I do in 8 hours would take an entire week.
You made out that MS where chasing Apple whilst describing the failings so I think my comment was fair game.
Did you know that you can use a touch screen, keyboard and mouse for different things?
Just because you touch for one thing doesn't mean you have to touch for every single possible thing, you know like typing, you can still use the KB for that whilst using touch for say scrolling or something else where a little bit of touch may be easier. Your ranty retort seems to say that because there is support for touch that all other input options have been removed - which of course is not true.
Also with the UI - whilst you might think it's more touch oriented (fair critique) the Win 8+ design is more keyboard friendly then any previous version of Windows in terms of being able to select UI elements with the keyboard.
In short
November 17, 2016 at 9:03 am
Hmm... this is nifty, more choices is always good. I'm wondering what they're going to do about other services that are still tightly coupled to windows OS right now like AD. Are those also going become platform independent or are they going be modifying products like SQL Server to support options on other platforms?
November 17, 2016 at 9:07 am
As one of the cross-platform developers on this site, I'm encouraged by the recent Microsoft offerings. (Lord knows I can be cynical!)
Windows 10 SP1 (aka the Anniversary Edition) is usable for those that like Windows 7. .NET is almost good on Linux, Microsoft and Community needs to spend more time with platform specific documentation and configuration. VS Code is quite decent on Windows and Linux. It works for F# and languages like D.
Have SQL Server on Linux would help protect it from some of the Fonts & Color people in Redmond that have inordinate control over the Windows platform.
November 17, 2016 at 11:47 am
djackson 22568 (11/17/2016)
peter.row (11/17/2016)
djackson 22568 (11/17/2016)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (11/16/2016)
Comments posted to this topic are about the item <A HREF="/articles/Editorial/149105/">A Joke Come True</A>Good decision? I think so. Microsoft is destroying the Windows platform. Touch screen OS for a server? Did they forget that there are technical people who make a living supporting servers? Do they really think that consumers can manage a data center?
Maybe when Windows dies in the data center, this will be one product that survives.
Strong opinion, I know, but a lot of people are sick and tired of MS chasing Apple - what happened to the days when they innovated and developed unique, quality products.
So being able to develop apps that scale to desktop/laptop/tablet/mobile/xbox with 1 deployment is not innovative? Can Apple do that with what they currently have? No they can't.
I don't think MS are chasing anything. For those hating the tiles of Server 2012/R2 install start8 or something, job done. Probably Server 2016 or whatever they call it will have the Windows 10 UI that blends and works both ways with easy. I've never tried it but what if you RDP'd to a server using a device with touch screen? Wouldn't the touch work then? Thus the we never go into the server room thing falls flat on it's face.
My post was not about Apple, it was about MS failings. However, maybe you need to try some Apple products, clearly you aren't aware of their capabilities.
Do you work in an organization that has a data center? We allow more access than most, and again, almost nobody goes in there. There isn't a reason to. I also don't know any engineer who uses a touch screen. Most of us use a keyboard as it is about 100 times faster. I don't have time to use a touch screen, what I do in 8 hours would take an entire week.
This is an opinion, so while contrasting views are expected, I doubt they would somehow invalidate folks own experiences with Microsoft's decisions with their products.
One of the things I've noticed with the new Microsoft interfaces is that they don't seem to "grow on you" so to speak, they seem to remain an irritant even with extended usage, whereas good UI would eventually seem useful and seamless after the initial learning curve was overcome. I remember for instance going to win 95 from 3.1 and really enjoying the experience after getting used to the changes whereas 8/8.1/10 has been awful and while I can work with anything, there seems to be an element of friction with the newer desktops that doesn't go away over time.
Microsoft also seems to be bent on removing choices with windows and many folks see them as bullying their own customers by virtue of their market position.
November 17, 2016 at 12:20 pm
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (11/17/2016)
djackson 22568 (11/17/2016)
peter.row (11/17/2016)
djackson 22568 (11/17/2016)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (11/16/2016)
Comments posted to this topic are about the item <A HREF="/articles/Editorial/149105/">A Joke Come True</A>Good decision? I think so. Microsoft is destroying the Windows platform. Touch screen OS for a server? Did they forget that there are technical people who make a living supporting servers? Do they really think that consumers can manage a data center?
Maybe when Windows dies in the data center, this will be one product that survives.
Strong opinion, I know, but a lot of people are sick and tired of MS chasing Apple - what happened to the days when they innovated and developed unique, quality products.
So being able to develop apps that scale to desktop/laptop/tablet/mobile/xbox with 1 deployment is not innovative? Can Apple do that with what they currently have? No they can't.
I don't think MS are chasing anything. For those hating the tiles of Server 2012/R2 install start8 or something, job done. Probably Server 2016 or whatever they call it will have the Windows 10 UI that blends and works both ways with easy. I've never tried it but what if you RDP'd to a server using a device with touch screen? Wouldn't the touch work then? Thus the we never go into the server room thing falls flat on it's face.
My post was not about Apple, it was about MS failings. However, maybe you need to try some Apple products, clearly you aren't aware of their capabilities.
Do you work in an organization that has a data center? We allow more access than most, and again, almost nobody goes in there. There isn't a reason to. I also don't know any engineer who uses a touch screen. Most of us use a keyboard as it is about 100 times faster. I don't have time to use a touch screen, what I do in 8 hours would take an entire week.
This is an opinion, so while contrasting views are expected, I doubt they would somehow invalidate folks own experiences with Microsoft's decisions with their products.
One of the things I've noticed with the new Microsoft interfaces is that they don't seem to "grow on you" so to speak, they seem to remain an irritant even with extended usage, whereas good UI would eventually seem useful and seamless after the initial learning curve was overcome. I remember for instance going to win 95 from 3.1 and really enjoying the experience after getting used to the changes whereas 8/8.1/10 has been awful and while I can work with anything, there seems to be an element of friction with the newer desktops that doesn't go away over time.
Microsoft also seems to be bent on removing choices with windows and many folks see them as bullying their own customers by virtue of their market position.
Absolutely.
For those who are familiar with Office pre ribbon bar, MS tested the market and found that for those who never used Office, people loved it. For anyone and everyone who had used Office before, and were at all proficient, they hated it. They found that it took at least two weeks of constant usage before it would be accepted.
Windows post v7, while similar in that maybe new users like it, people who are proficient with previous versions hate it far more often than they like it.
Further, as you noted, people are tired of MS removing choices and forcing/bullying customers into accepting poor design choices. I could understand this if they built a new OS from scratch and fixed all of the underlying issues with the kernel, how device drivers work, and all of the other flaws. But they don't, They just keep applying bigger and bigger bandaids, all the while trying to merge server and desktop operating systems. Stupid at best.
Should we discuss how they pulled the world's largest bait and switch scheme by offering v10 as "free", which is of course a blatant lie, and now that a number of people are hooked they are going to continue like a drug pusher.
Lastly, I talked to a few engineers I work with who actually like v10, and asked if they would use the touch screen to manage a server. Once they got done laughing at me, calling me an idiot, and asking why I would even consider such a stupid idea, they confirmed like I thought that the performance is so bad that you would have to be an idiot to work that way if you didn't have too. The final comment they made, had something to do with comparing it to connecting to a Windows box using your phone. Something you do only when a PC is not available, but not something you would do if you had any other choice, including driving in to work at 2AM! At least I think that was their point, it was hard to hear with all of the laughing and thigh slapping, and calling others into the room to laugh at the question...
Dave
November 17, 2016 at 12:56 pm
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (11/17/2016)
djackson 22568 (11/17/2016)
peter.row (11/17/2016)
djackson 22568 (11/17/2016)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (11/16/2016)
Comments posted to this topic are about the item <A HREF="/articles/Editorial/149105/">A Joke Come True</A>Good decision? I think so. Microsoft is destroying the Windows platform. Touch screen OS for a server? Did they forget that there are technical people who make a living supporting servers? Do they really think that consumers can manage a data center?
Maybe when Windows dies in the data center, this will be one product that survives.
Strong opinion, I know, but a lot of people are sick and tired of MS chasing Apple - what happened to the days when they innovated and developed unique, quality products.
So being able to develop apps that scale to desktop/laptop/tablet/mobile/xbox with 1 deployment is not innovative? Can Apple do that with what they currently have? No they can't.
I don't think MS are chasing anything. For those hating the tiles of Server 2012/R2 install start8 or something, job done. Probably Server 2016 or whatever they call it will have the Windows 10 UI that blends and works both ways with easy. I've never tried it but what if you RDP'd to a server using a device with touch screen? Wouldn't the touch work then? Thus the we never go into the server room thing falls flat on it's face.
My post was not about Apple, it was about MS failings. However, maybe you need to try some Apple products, clearly you aren't aware of their capabilities.
Do you work in an organization that has a data center? We allow more access than most, and again, almost nobody goes in there. There isn't a reason to. I also don't know any engineer who uses a touch screen. Most of us use a keyboard as it is about 100 times faster. I don't have time to use a touch screen, what I do in 8 hours would take an entire week.
This is an opinion, so while contrasting views are expected, I doubt they would somehow invalidate folks own experiences with Microsoft's decisions with their products.
One of the things I've noticed with the new Microsoft interfaces is that they don't seem to "grow on you" so to speak, they seem to remain an irritant even with extended usage, whereas good UI would eventually seem useful and seamless after the initial learning curve was overcome. I remember for instance going to win 95 from 3.1 and really enjoying the experience after getting used to the changes whereas 8/8.1/10 has been awful and while I can work with anything, there seems to be an element of friction with the newer desktops that doesn't go away over time.
Microsoft also seems to be bent on removing choices with windows and many folks see them as bullying their own customers by virtue of their market position.
I happen to really like the windows 10 UI, it's a nice blend of the old windows UI with the better elements of the metro UI available in a useful way instead of shoved down your throat. The windows server 2012 UI on the other hand is god awful for a server interface.
November 17, 2016 at 1:25 pm
ZZartin (11/17/2016)
...
I happen to really like the windows 10 UI, it's a nice blend of the old windows UI with the better elements of the metro UI available in a useful way instead of shoved down your throat. The windows server 2012 UI on the other hand is god awful for a server interface.
So, your work PC doesn't have a 28" touch screen display?
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
November 17, 2016 at 2:32 pm
I was always reluctant to go with Macs. Not for any technical reason, more for the price and the sort of people I saw using them.
Then I was given one at work. Once you've learned a new set of keystrokes they just work beautifully.
I'm curious about the Windows server reboot evety 90 days. I seem to remember there was a bug in the cluster controller that did that in an edge case. I'd be livid if that was a feature on my SQL Servers but it isn't so I'm not.
It's not until you use a different DB to SQL Server that you really appreciate what it does for you. Hybrid row and column stores, Hekaton, contol flow through TSQL, easy extension through SQLCLR, JSON & XML handling,. 3rd party tooling etc.
There are DBs out there that are better at certain things but very few have such a broad sweep of talents.
I'd be curious as to whether Microsoft will eventually do a Linux version of SDIS/RS/AS or let those quietly die.
November 17, 2016 at 2:38 pm
David.Poole (11/17/2016)
...
I'd be curious as to whether Microsoft will eventually do a Linux version of SDIS/RS/AS or let those quietly die.
I doubt Microsoft would let the ETL/Integration and BI components of their stack die, since these components are a big part of what gives the SQL Server platform it's competitive advantage?
In any event, they wouldn't die quietly since there are lot of users who use them.
If anything, Microsoft should rub the OS itself out of the picture. For many enterprise databases, it's a wasteful overhead in terms of memory and CPU, and the OS is a surface area that exposes the database to security holes that the DBA would otherwise not have to worry about.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
November 17, 2016 at 9:03 pm
I suppose it was inevitable that this editorial would trigger off an Apple fanboy to tell us that Microsoft is a waste of space and Apple has the only useful OS. I guess DJackson is too young to remember that the only reason Apple survived is that Microsoft bailed them out with a decent compiler at peanuts price when Apple had managed to produce only crap, and too thick to realise that the "rectangle with curved corners" design antedated Apple's first use of it by a decade or two (more like three, actually). It's really sad that people are so partisan that they regard companies that have contributed real technical advances to computing as crap while supporting a company which has done nothing but steal other people's ideas and claim them for their own, and act like the basest patent troll. But that's Apple fanboys for you, isn't it?!
I guess I'm too appalled by the crap I've read here to make any useful comment of my own other than to say what crap I think it is. With luck I'll calm down and make some more useful comment later.
Tom
November 18, 2016 at 12:20 am
I would not describe myself as an Apple fanboy. What they are is industrial design rather than technical innovation. Unfortunately people tend to praise the things they can physically touch and see rather than the foundations and hidden mechanicals that makes the visible parts anything more than an ornament.
I can remember the era of Microsoft Multiplan, Chart and Dos 1.3. Word existed and could run from a 360k floppy disk. I always found Word to be easier to use than Wordstar, Multiplan to have a more intuitive interface than Supercalc and Lotus 123.
I've no doubt that Lotus was the better spreadsheet but it's user interface was like a stone in your shoe.
Do I actually care about the OS? Not really. I've been quite happy with Windows 10. As a developer I like Linux because it is command line friendly. The command window in Windows is just as crap now as it always has been. I still get frustrated by not having CTRL+C CTRL+V working in it.
Virtual technology is evolving rapidly. The stuff that is coming down the tracks goes way beyond Docker and other container technologies. The big boys are gearing up for such a world so pushing a heavyweight OS is not the appealing thing it once was
November 18, 2016 at 1:07 am
David.Poole (11/18/2016)
I would not describe myself as an Apple fanboy. What they are is industrial design rather than technical innovation. Unfortunately people tend to praise the things they can physically touch and see rather than the foundations and hidden mechanicals that makes the visible parts anything more than an ornament.I can remember the era of Microsoft Multiplan, Chart and Dos 1.3. Word existed and could run from a 360k floppy disk. I always found Word to be easier to use than Wordstar, Multiplan to have a more intuitive interface than Supercalc and Lotus 123.
I've no doubt that Lotus was the better spreadsheet but it's user interface was like a stone in your shoe.
Do I actually care about the OS? Not really. I've been quite happy with Windows 10. As a developer I like Linux because it is command line friendly. The command window in Windows is just as crap now as it always has been. I still get frustrated by not having CTRL+C CTRL+V working in it.
Virtual technology is evolving rapidly. The stuff that is coming down the tracks goes way beyond Docker and other container technologies. The big boys are gearing up for such a world so pushing a heavyweight OS is not the appealing thing it once was
Do you really use the Windows 10 command line?
You *CAN* Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V, 100% fact, I do it all the time, using plain old MS cmd prompt.
Not to mention that you can also have the command prompt default to a powershell instead of the more basic command prompt. If wasn't in the RTM version it came in the first update in November after it RTM'd.
In the anniversary update MS added bash support effectively giving you access to all manner of Linux commands.
The day I consider using MacOS will be the day I can install it (legally and with support) on any hardware of my choosing. Until that day it's not a valid comparison to Windows.
November 18, 2016 at 1:35 am
Probably Microsoft just accepting Economics
I'm on record as thinking that the additional features that are added to software tools although good are not significant enough IMHO to prevent continual eroding of some of the high prices we have seen for software. Generally for a product (software) for which after creation reproduction is effectively free there's got to be heavy pressure on price. That's not to say that I believe in free software but the final position for software has got to be a cost approaching zero or at least basically affordable for everyone. As such I welcome the kind of Office 365 approach whereby for very reasonable amounts you get loads.
Imagine a situation where everyone gets every product microsoft does for 50p a month period. At that kind of cost it becomes daft not to take them up on it and half the world could be subscribers.
Would really put a ky-bosh on people re-inventing the wheel which lets face it is probably good as they can get on with inventing tools for which there currently isn't anything.
cloudydatablog.net
November 18, 2016 at 1:47 am
I'm keen to keep my skills up to date as much as possible and try not to be a refusenik who ends up getting left behind, so I'm going to do a proof of concept of this and see what it's like. My Linux knowledge is seriously limited though; I've used it briefly when I had to do basic administration on some Sybase instances, but I'm not comfortable with it the way I am with Windows. Can anybody recommend a book or training course that would suit a DBA looking to cross-train? I suspect there will be a few of us!
November 18, 2016 at 2:00 am
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