July 28, 2015 at 8:13 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Hiring for Culture
July 29, 2015 at 1:43 am
My brother in law had two short books on his shelf. One was about your CV &the other about interviews . The interview book said that all questions are really asking 3 meta questions.
1. Can they do the job
2. Will they do the job
3. Will they fit in
I feel that there is also the question of can you manage them.
I've known people who are hard working, popular, brilliant at what they do but you wouldn't let them near the bosses boss!
I think the culture fit is multi tiered. There is the overall culture from top down and there is function specific cultures. If you are a manager the question is how can I recruit an nurture a vibrant culture with out it running riot
July 29, 2015 at 4:53 am
I think this is very much dependent on what you are trying to achieve difficult tasks sometimes require technical competence first.
Of course if you are technically competent yourself you can spot who you can train up and be a much more flexible on that aspect. Good bloke syndrome can be a real problem if the wrong people are doing the appointments!
cloudydatablog.net
July 29, 2015 at 6:31 am
Certainly a person coming to work at a company that refuses to engage with others in any way outside of work can be a problem. We need to get along with each other as social creatures, and be able to hold a conversation with each other that might not involve work. However I'm not sure that anyone expects every other employee to have, discuss, and participate in the same interests as the manager or even a group of people.
Personally, I think requiring or expecting an employee to engage socially outside of the workplace at all as a part of employment is a bit...stepford.
Given, requiring an employee to become buddies/friends/pals/mates/co-dependent on their fellow co-workers and expecting them to "get along" are two very different things.
At the last company for whom I worked, I got along really well with all but 2 people in the IT department: one programmer...and the director.
The programmer was a nice guy and I got along with him well, but what he did outside of work socially was not what I'd do socially so no opportunities would come about for us to do things. Therefore, us becoming buddies wasn't in the cards.
Then, there was my boss. One programmer nicknamed him "Darth Rager" because he'd go stomping around sucking on an e-cig. My friend who is a programmer with another government nicknamed him "Stompy" because of how I described how he stomped around like a pouting 4-year-old when things didn't go how he wanted when he programmed. Outside of work, he was a nice enough guy. But, he wasn't someone I'd care to socialize with all the time...mainly because conversations were all him doing the talking.
Needless to say when the layoffs came, I was let go a) because I was the biggest expense of non-veteran programmers there, and b) I feel because I didn't go sit and eat lunch with the boss and his group of people who'd listen to him tell his stories all lunch hour.
So, I wasn't a fit for their culture. And, I fully admit that. However, what was sold to me in the interview and how things were on the job ended up being 2 totally different things. Had I known the truth behind a lot of things, I'd have avoided working there and stayed where I was until I found a better opportunity. I didn't refuse to do things outside of work with others. I attended the company Christmas party and a department get together and what not. So, it's not like I was anti-social and wouldn't interface with anyone.
Finding a cultural fit is a difficult task. I do think plenty of people hire the best programmer they find (whatever that means), regardless of their ability to get along with others. I also think plenty of managers hire someone that gets along great, but isn't a good employee. As with many things in hiring, finding a balance of talent, attitude, work ethic, and social compatibility is important and worth striving for, but difficult to actually achieve in practice.
Yeah, it's VERY difficult.
I've only ever had 4 jobs in 20+ years that I felt really comfortable with being there. Fortunately now, I am at a job where the top guy is very cool, smart, laid back, and sensible. My boss is super cool, patient, thoughtful, and knows his stuff. And, all my co-workers are nice, polite, considerate, caring and giving people...but they range from one who is fairly religious to another who enjoys her drink to another who is a sci-fi geek (like me lol). And, the pace here is not neckbreaking speed. Things get done and done well in a reasonable schedule, rather than as fast as it can be pushed out.
So needless to say, I plan on being here as long as I can be. After over 2 decades, I finally found a place I fit into well.
July 29, 2015 at 6:33 am
The biggest problem in IT today is the "can they fit in" problem. The problem is that people use this to justify racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia. One of the main reasons IT is so white, male, straight and cis is that those hiring don't feel as comfortable with people who aren't like them. Even hiring for ability is clouded by these things, with the hiring people judging those who aren't like them as less competent even before they get to the "will the fit in" questions. There have been studies that show this.
As such, I think this editorial is entirely backwards. Hire for diversity and work on "fitting in" once they get hired. If you ignore the "fitting in" question you're more likely to get a variety of ideas, experiences, and approaches and your product will be better as a result. If you can't get along with the vast majority of people, maybe you shouldn't be a manager.
And personally, I almost never socialize with co-workers. I have friends, I don't have time for work friends. Not to say I'm not friendly with people from work, but we're not making plans to hang out together aside from a very occasional work dinner, usually because someone is leaving or was just hired. Lunch is far more likely.
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When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
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It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
July 29, 2015 at 6:47 am
I have been on a lot of development teams. On every single one, the culture was this: if you can't program, we will eat you alive.
July 29, 2015 at 7:09 am
Our interview process is to get technically qualified candidates down to 2 or 3. Then they are brought in to meet the IT team without the manager there. We all just talk, to see how the candidate "feels" to us as one we could and would work with. That reaction by IT is used heavily in the final decision.
July 29, 2015 at 7:13 am
GeorgeCopeland (7/29/2015)
I have been on a lot of development teams. On every single one, the culture was this: if you can't program, we will eat you alive.
And that's too bad. It sets up competition and rivalry. It is the antithesis of "fitting in" and working together. I see it a lot too and I think it gives the lie to the whole "fitting in" thing.
Why not train and mentor instead of tearing each other down. You get a much better team that way in a number of ways.
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When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
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It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
July 29, 2015 at 7:22 am
Programmers resent efforts to make them fit in with people who can't program.
July 29, 2015 at 7:28 am
GeorgeCopeland (7/29/2015)
Programmers resent efforts to make them fit in with people who can't program.
I'm just saying, if you want bonding, good mentoring is the way to do it. And each of us couldn't program at one point.
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When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
July 29, 2015 at 7:32 am
Amazing Question. In 35 years in the industry I've worked with small business, Played in the Dot-Com bubble, Did major corporate IT, and now work for a major defense company. All the worlds are different.
The Dot-Com company was trying to buy talent where ever they could find it, but did quarterly layoffs for anyone that didn't fit in. In some ways it was a Frat club with some amazing parties with terrible politics and a ruthless HR. Fun some days, but only if you were in the club.
As a Payroll programmer for a top IT company the work environment was respectful and great when things got done. Some projects had terrible Overtime, but we all got annual raises and recognition, had some intramural sports, and worked in teams. Not everyone was a "friend" but our shared experiences crossed every boundary. Wish I could go back to that time.
Small business was a small team, period. Anyone that didn't roll with the crew didn't last. Ok but only if it fits with your style.
Currently the industry is virtual teams spread across the world. I've met one of my 25 team members, interviews have all been on the phone, never met the manager, but recognize his voice and avatar in online meetings. There is no fit with the team, and we might describe it as being more like contractors than employees. Tracking work and accomplishments is a daily issue.
We should all think about where we want to spend all those hours... With a team that has your back, or at home in your Jammies coding. Different worlds, different needs, different people.
July 29, 2015 at 7:39 am
Not to be to political, but people 'hired' George W. Bush because 'He was someone I could see having a beer with'. That turned out to be a horrible 'hire'.
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we travel not to escape life but for life not to escape us
Don't fear failure, fear regret.
July 29, 2015 at 7:50 am
"Getting on" with people is an important skill, but it's not defined by being able to socialise outside work. I'm currently in a small(ish) department of about 30 people and there are half a dozen of us that go for a beer on a Friday lunch-time; that doesn't mean the rest don't fit (or that we don't).
I've also worked in a team where the project manager forbade a particular business analyst and a particular programmer from talking to one another (they had table-thumping arguments that distracted the whole office). He insisted they communicate only via me (thanks). Could the team function without either one? No.
My point is that a good team is made of people with different skills, interests and personalities. The manager's job is to make sure they don't kill one another until the project has been delivered.
July 29, 2015 at 8:03 am
Instead of seeking someone who will "fit in" companies should seek people with whom others like to work (or don't mind working with).
Truth is that no matter how good at a job a person is, if everyone else loathes having to see that person the team will suffer. But that should not be mistaken for someone I want to go hang out with after work. I have had some great work buddies that I never spent time with outside of work.
Basically, ideally you find a person who doesn't make others feel awkward and gets the job done well. I would have to say that I consider leadership way more important than who I am working with.
July 29, 2015 at 8:05 am
jckfla (7/29/2015)
Certainly a person coming to work at a company that refuses to engage with others in any way outside of work can be a problem. We need to get along with each other as social creatures, and be able to hold a conversation with each other that might not involve work. However I'm not sure that anyone expects every other employee to have, discuss, and participate in the same interests as the manager or even a group of people.
Personally, I think requiring or expecting an employee to engage socially outside of the workplace at all as a part of employment is a bit...stepford.
Given, requiring an employee to become buddies/friends/pals/mates/co-dependent on their fellow co-workers and expecting them to "get along" are two very different things.
I also think it is discriminatory and illegal. First, my time is just that, mine! I choose to spend it with my family. My kids are far more important than anything a co-worker might be interested in socially. There are exceptions of course, I am friends with co-workers who place their family above work. One event I choose to participate in is the company picnic, because kids are involved. I attend Christmas parties as well, but these frequently aren't handled appropriately - just because I am a Christian doesn't mean every one of my co-workers are, and yet they are expected to attend?
I know plenty of people who have fit in socially at work. The most social do the least work. The rest of us have to pull their workload.
Dave
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