July 16, 2014 at 8:07 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Access Disdain
July 16, 2014 at 9:00 pm
Andy, I agree with your opinion thoroughly. I also 'grew up' with access... though I did mine in 95/97. So perhaps it's just familiarity.
Access is an excellent tool when used correctly. It's CHEAP. Let's start there. It installs (or did, I may need a refresher) for around $250/seat. Considering once you're over 5 or more users in access you're reaching it's reasonable locking control limits, that's just fine. It comes with office, another plus. It uses the similar menus, toolbars, etc that our users are used to.
Next, it's got a built in form and reports structure, and the reports are WYSIWYG. Users can goof around a bit and get exactly what they want, instead of having to rely on developers to make it "Just So". It also encourages the idea of dev and production in our user base, as they've become 'devs', of a form.
Finally, there is plenty of juice in Access as long as you're not overwhelming it with concurrency or data volume. There's a concept that Access is 'training wheels' for design. Well, YEAH. It is. It's meant to be end user friendly and thus has a lot of tools for those end users to be able to get their hands dirty. Get past those wizards, however, and there's plenty of firepower under the hood of the application. Self contained, easily distributed, security easily controlled via file access by AD, and user friendly.
It's not the application though, that usually gets to folks. It's that some numbskull in some department somewhere starts up a secondary system to 'work around that difficult corporate app' so they can move quickly, stores half the data off in some now 'mission critical' application, and it's now our emergency to bail their asses out of alligators. Get a good, knowledgeable, and integrated with IT MS Access person on a staff to work with those small departments for their one off needs, and I believe you'd find much of the disdain to start to fall away.
That person can then know when a department is avoiding existing systems, and thus get it up the queue to the systems developers, or actually build them their one off tool in half, if not less, of the time a 'full blown' application can take. Particularly if they just need to catalog their sports card collection when the rest of the company is concerned with making bats and helmets.
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July 17, 2014 at 8:37 am
My first interactions with Access were all negative. My first DBA job I fell into on accident. It was such a pain we had users with linked tables to our SQL Server databases causing all kind of locking and even preventing jobs from running. My first real job was to create a job that killed all open connections from our generic account that we had given the password to everyone. Oh so secure... We were totally using Access for something it wasn't intended for. Next I had to get all the AD user groups created and change every ODBC connection to use a trusted connection so we could figure out who was even connecting. I think that is why I have such a passion for squashing its use.
July 17, 2014 at 8:54 am
Power Pivot has replaced nearly everything I used to use Access for. Size doesn't matter, and you can use Excel like a 'real' database. Power Query does much of the clean up I used to do in Access, or SQL Server for that matter.
July 17, 2014 at 8:57 am
I'm glad to read something so positive about MS Access. Without it, I might not be were I am today. I learned database design, application design, UI design using it to develop applications. I even created class objects in it, something rarely seen in an Access application, although admittedly I learned those in VB first.
I've long moved on, but it was a great start, and too many people have disdain for a product that in my view (having used all three major suites at a time MS didn't dominate) is easily the best in its class. I occasionally use it for small pro bono work, such as boy scout popcorn sales and to help military mail rooms in Europe manage thier package receipt and delivery.
July 17, 2014 at 9:03 am
... The pain of Access comes when the database gets too big, too slow, or the app just gets too unwieldy. Then we as DBA’s and developers get called in to “fix” the problem ...
The pain goes well beyond these technical difficulties, because Access databases and their accompanying 'apps' are often written by people outside the IT department - meaning the business becomes increasingly reliant upon databases and applications which are not properly maintained, backed-up, or designed.
Access does have its place; I've found it to be useful for database schema and application prototyping. But like any tool, there is a right and a wrong job for Access.
July 17, 2014 at 9:10 am
I like it when users create something sensible that works decently in Access and then they come to our team to say, "We need to build an application like this one, but it needs _____". It's like a full requirement documents in a single file. It's beautiful in that way. Just don't ask me to do the improvements in Access itself, then the disdain comes out.
July 17, 2014 at 9:35 am
Ian Massi (7/17/2014)
I like it when users create something sensible that works decently in Access and then they come to our team to say, "We need to build an application like this one, but it needs _____". It's like a full requirement documents in a single file. It's beautiful in that way. Just don't ask me to do the improvements in Access itself, then the disdain comes out.
This is very much how I view Access these days. It allows users to do more than Excel could and often they can solve their own problems. Sure, some of the solutions may be duct tape and bailing wire. At the small scale most of the projects exist, it is enough to be better than the manual method they replace.
When the problem *does* exceed their grasp (or Access), the partially implemented solution may cause some internal head shaking. Still, it is far more productive to take what they *did* achieve, along with the list of things they still need and get to work in Visual Studio + SQL Server.
I find that clients that have used Access are *far* more appreciative and understanding than those who come from nothing, because the pain points they reach allow them some understanding of the complexity of software.
July 17, 2014 at 10:22 am
I too agree with you completely. Access should be given way more respect than it gets.
July 17, 2014 at 10:35 am
Andy touched on one of the biggest problems with Access, the frequent need to compact/repair. Someone else also mentioned that it's limited in how many concurrent users it can handle. As a front end to a real database (I've worked with that setup at a number of companies), it's easy to use and generate simple forms and reports. But many people don't understand the inner workings of it, and don't use things like pass through queries, so that the database engine does the work it's supposed to do and only sends Access what it needs. Having "grown up" in a similar environment (my first job out of college in 94 was in FoxPro 2.0/2.5 for DOS), Access always seemed to me like the other product that never quite measured up. FoxPro's fate was sealed though when Microsoft bought them out. I don't hate Access, I just know it gets misused a lot.
July 17, 2014 at 11:19 am
As a front end to a real database
As you said, Access may be often misused. I would NEVER use it as a front end to a "real" database, only an Access one.
July 17, 2014 at 11:36 am
Andy address the issue in terms of using Access. Pipe-delimited files stored data before Access was presented to the community. I have observed the disdain for many types of technologies as new platforms come out. I personally see every form of technology as a tool in my tool box. I may not use them as frequently as in the past but we need to keep them in mind for when they are needed.
In my early days I used pipe-delimited text files to store data and had several set up in a relational manner when needed. One client still used these text files so they could transmit data over a phone line each evening. This was in 2005.
As application and database developers and DBAs we need to see our tools as a means to solve client business problems. On occasion we need to recommend new technologies other times we need to solve the client's problem in the least expensive manner. Excel spreadsheets can make excellent UI tools if connected to the data store properly and at a much lower cost than other available UIs.
I know this is considered by many to be heresy but an Apache Enterprise Service Bus may be more effective than BizTalk for some clients.
July 17, 2014 at 12:16 pm
Donald, I like your comment on Excel. I would disagree on "as good", but totally agree it solves a lot of problems in the world and is far more approachable. Access is the beast that is often too complicated for those that (I think) need it and not powerful enough for those who decide to use it! {Thats not disdain, I think!}
July 17, 2014 at 12:17 pm
RonKyle (7/17/2014)As you said, Access may be often misused. I would NEVER use it as a front end to a "real" database, only an Access one.
That's your choice. I've found it makes a good forms and reports front end when tied to a SQL Server or Oracle back end and the users need to customize their reports. While it may be ideal if the IT department controlled everything, there are few companies where there are enough IT developers to handle all the business needs. The best option then is to provide tools to the users for them to be more self-serving. If you don't give users the tools they desire, then they will find their own ways around IT, creating manual processes, poor data stores that aren't designed or backed up properly, and creating more problems in the long term. That's how shadow IT groups get started.
July 17, 2014 at 12:18 pm
Ron, I think you might be missing out on the front end. Access is very good at data binding and for those "admin apps" with not a lot of users, the time to market on good enough is incredibly fast compared to writing code. No, I wouldn't use for 500 concurrent users, but there is a place where Access (or anything similar) is worth considering.
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