August 23, 2011 at 7:56 am
Several years ago, I worked with SQL Server extensively, and this web site was one of my most useful tools. One of the best things about it was that you never got a snarky comment about a post. Even if the question was a "dumb" question from a newbie, folks were kind and offered whatever assistance they could provide, or they just simply ignored a obviously goofy post.
I took a break from SQL Server to work with Oracle for about 3 years, and now I am working with SQL Server again. I started using this site more frequently about a year ago, and I have noticed a change in tenor of the responses posted on the forum. Recently, I see more "search books online" and "try google" responses.
Presumably, most posters would have already tried Google and Books Online (as I have) prior to posting on this site. What changed? If folks don't have a "real" answer or suggestion, why do they bother responding at all?
August 23, 2011 at 8:01 am
in some cases, that's absolutely true; after answering the same posting question over and over again, some folks get jaded;
I myself got snarky a while back and when someone posted that my remarks were snarky, i made a conscience effort to do better in the future.
When i post, i try to always post example code/snippets to get folks on the right track;
A few folks may need to have the same self-realization that I had to help make this site a better place.
the other side of the coin is the posts where the posters don't want to put any effort or explanation into the post, but expect a digestable, copy & paste answer built from best guesses and mind reading...those are tough on everyone.
Lowell
August 23, 2011 at 8:07 am
Lowell (8/23/2011)
When i post, i try to always post example code/snippets to get folks on the right track;
Yup. I *totally* agree. And, when I post, I try to be as specific as possible.
I just surprised to see so many small-effort responses ignoring information that was already included in the same thread.
Oh, well, the site is still a good resource. 🙂
August 23, 2011 at 9:02 am
shew (8/23/2011)
Several years ago, I worked with SQL Server extensively, and this web site was one of my most useful tools. One of the best things about it was that you never got a snarky comment about a post. Even if the question was a "dumb" question from a newbie, folks were kind and offered whatever assistance they could provide, or they just simply ignored a obviously goofy post.
Maybe you just got lucky back then?
I took a break from SQL Server to work with Oracle for about 3 years, and now I am working with SQL Server again. I started using this site more frequently about a year ago, and I have noticed a change in tenor of the responses posted on the forum. Recently, I see more "search books online" and "try google" responses.
Presumably, most posters would have already tried Google and Books Online (as I have) prior to posting on this site. What changed?
I do agree with you, more answers have become snarky. But on the flip side, I also see more questions with zero effort put in beforehand. Or even worse, no effort and a "do this for me" attitude.
If folks don't have a "real" answer or suggestion, why do they bother responding at all?
Superiority complex and/or post-count increase.
But still, all of that is human nature and SSC is still the best resource hands-down.
______________________________________________________________________________
How I want a drink, alcoholic of course, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.
August 23, 2011 at 9:14 am
shew (8/23/2011)
Presumably, most posters would have already tried Google and Books Online (as I have) prior to posting on this site.
I wish.
When you get questions like 'What does <statement of your choice> do?' or 'What is database mirroring?' or 'I have these questions as homework. Answer them.' then honestly the best thing to do is to point the person at the documentation or google. I certainly can't explain in a couple of lines what the documentation takes several pages to describe.
If you consult google and BoL first then you have my thanks. You're not in majority though.
http://sqlskills.com/BLOGS/PAUL/post/RTFM-No-seriously-RTFM-Then-ask-your-question.aspx
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
August 23, 2011 at 9:26 am
shew (8/23/2011)
Presumably, most posters would have already tried Google and Books Online (as I have) prior to posting on this site.
As Gail said, not even a simple majority of posters seem to check BOL or google first. It is nice to see some of them figure that out and start with those resources. It is very helpful when they share what documentation they have looked at and what is confusing them as well. At least they put some effort into it.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
August 23, 2011 at 10:23 am
I certainly see why you say that based on your post earlier today where the suggestion was to look at google. Which of course did not even come close to addressing your question.
In general people here are still friendly and helpful but we are all sometimes bitten by providing a somewhat snarky answer when the poster wants to leverage our knowledge to make their job as easy as possible. When the poster is clearly trying to learn or are in over their heads and put forth the effort there are lots of offers for help.
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August 23, 2011 at 10:42 am
toddasd (8/23/2011)
Superiority complex and/or post-count increase.
Good point. 😛
August 23, 2011 at 10:48 am
GilaMonster (8/23/2011)
shew (8/23/2011)
Presumably, most posters would have already tried Google and Books Online (as I have) prior to posting on this site.I wish.
When you get questions like 'What does <statement of your choice> do?' or 'What is database mirroring?' or 'I have these questions as homework. Answer them.' then honestly the best thing to do is to point the person at the documentation or google. I certainly can't explain in a couple of lines what the documentation takes several pages to describe.
If you consult google and BoL first then you have my thanks. You're not in majority though.
http://sqlskills.com/BLOGS/PAUL/post/RTFM-No-seriously-RTFM-Then-ask-your-question.aspx
+1
And yes, even I have gotten snarky on occasion and been called on it as well.
August 23, 2011 at 10:51 am
Took a look at your other post. If you read between the lines it does appear that you had done some research already withoutspecifically stating so.
August 23, 2011 at 11:13 am
GilaMonster (8/23/2011)
http://sqlskills.com/BLOGS/PAUL/post/RTFM-No-seriously-RTFM-Then-ask-your-question.aspx
For the most part, I agree with the cited URL. However, I disagree with the "There are good reasons why products come with manuals" section on the page. To my knowledge, SQL Server no longer comes with a traditional manual. (The way we purchase SQL Server, we don't even receive traditional installation media. We only get a .iso file that we mount across the network.) Books Online is hardly a manual. To its credit, it does contain tons of useful information, but it does not typically tie the information together in a cohesive fashion like a book does. (That's one reason I have purchased so many SQL Server books over the last 15 years.)
Interestingly, many of the snarky posts that point to Books Online assume that Books Online is always installed and only a click away, and that is not necessarily the case. At our site, Books Online is not installed by default. You have to know that it exists, and you have to request a special installation to get it.
The lack of traditional documentation may make it more likely for some folks to post questions with a "fix my problem now" attitude. I don't agree with that mentality, but I suppose that some of that is understandable, at least to a certain point.
August 23, 2011 at 11:22 am
If Books Online is not installed locally (desktop or server), it is available on the internet on MSDN. If you can post here, you can get to the online version of Books Online as well.
Edit: Not meant to be snarky, just a statement of fact.
August 23, 2011 at 11:27 am
Lynn Pettis (8/23/2011)
If Books Online is not installed locally (desktop or server), it is available on the internet on MSDN. If you can post here, you can get to the online version of Books Online as well.Edit: Not meant to be snarky, just a statement of fact.
Point well taken.
August 23, 2011 at 11:47 am
shew (8/23/2011)
To my knowledge, SQL Server no longer comes with a traditional manual. (The way we purchase SQL Server, we don't even receive traditional installation media. We only get a .iso file that we mount across the network.)
Neither has just about any software product I've bought in the last few years (other than games)
Books Online is hardly a manual. To its credit, it does contain tons of useful information, but it does not typically tie the information together in a cohesive fashion like a book does. (That's one reason I have purchased so many SQL Server books over the last 15 years.)
If you start with the Table of Contents, a lot of it is more organised than some physical books, and it gets updated every few months which is hard to do with a pile of paper
Interestingly, many of the snarky posts that point to Books Online assume that Books Online is always installed and only a click away, and that is not necessarily the case.
If I point someone at BoL, I use the online version and link to the exact topic. The online is easier to link to, easier to search and is (almost) always there. Not having the help file installed is no excuse for not doing research.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
August 23, 2011 at 11:47 am
The one that really bug me (and yes it happens far too often) is someone who ask a question.
And then 15 minutes later will reping on the same thread, and then once more another 60 minutes later.
This is free help, not the 300$ PSS line from microsoft. And even PSS has a 2H minimum buffer for the first reply (assuming your server is down or that you can't deploy software mods).
+1 on the people not using google or bols. I've seen cases where the guy just didn't know what term to type in and it's a pleasure to answer those questions beause you see the guy's actually trying. But unfortunately those are few and far between.
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