May 28, 2010 at 10:28 am
I started this topic in another thread and decided to move it over here. I wonder what everyone's take is on this topic that is affecting out workplaces? Do you think it is good for our industry or not? Please feel free to discuss 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 28, 2010 at 12:50 pm
Bring this from the other thread:
TravisDBA (5/28/2010)
You know, I don't know that this needs any kind of legislation. The middle ground is horrible for everyone involved except the companies who get forced labor at cheap prices.
This is where I disagree with you. Unless we enact laws that penalize companies from doing this they will continue to do it because of they can get cheap labor and work these people around the clock. It is hurting our American workforce as well as our economy because these people don't put their money back into our businesses, and we need to step up as a country and put a stop to it. For example, when is the last time you saw an Indian dining out in an American restaurant? The millions of people currently out of work in the IT field alone will thank us, I am sure of that. 😀
Unfortunately, outsourcing has been around for a long time. Show me a car (or truck) that is assembled here in the US with all components manufactured in the US.
How would you make it illegal for a US company from contracting with a company overseas to work on IT projects?
I also wish I could find the reference, but I recently read an article on eWeek that shows that many H1B's actually make more than their US counterparts.
My opinion, however, businesses should exhaust all efforts to higher, train, and retain, US citizens first (actually, I feel every company should hire citizens first before immigrants regardless of country). There are jobs that many of us here in the US won't do. How many of us would get out in the fields to pick crops for instance? There is a place for immigrant workers, but we need to provide them with opportunities to grow as well. The opportunity to be more and do more, to live (dare I say) the American Dream.
May 28, 2010 at 1:28 pm
How would you make it illegal for a US company from contracting with a company overseas to work on IT projects?
I'm not so sure we can make it illegal, but I'm more for penalizing/taking tax breaks away from current companies to stop this as stated in my post, or at least severely curtail it anyway. Obama, I believe, also supports this and I think he is trying to get this into law as well. I hope he does. I think more Amereicans should feel like you and I do: "I feel every company should hire citizens first before immigrants regardless of country" it is in our best interests, particularly nowadays with the economy being in the crapper.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 28, 2010 at 2:03 pm
TravisDBA (5/28/2010)
I started this topic in another thread and decided to move it over here.
Do you have a link to that other thread? I couldn't find it... 🙁
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
May 28, 2010 at 2:16 pm
WayneS (5/28/2010)
TravisDBA (5/28/2010)
I started this topic in another thread and decided to move it over here.Do you have a link to that other thread? I couldn't find it... 🙁
And then I stumbled upon it... 😀 http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/FindPost929732.aspx for all others that are interested, but please respond over here!
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
May 28, 2010 at 2:25 pm
I am not a proponent of outsourcing IT jobs. However, economics may support economics in certain industries due to raw materials, cost, labor, and resources.
My experience in IT though has been that outsourcing has been good (in the long run) for me. After outsourcing projects due to perceived lower cost and then seeing that the project was delayed in every case with several re-works and then finally bringing the projects in-house, employers I have had started getting smarter about it. They eventually scrapped outsourcing and just started compensating in-house employees a little better. In the end, keeping projects in-house saved them money.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
May 28, 2010 at 2:31 pm
TravisDBA (5/28/2010)
I feel every company should hire citizens first before immigrants regardless of country"
I'm so glad that isn't a law where I live. Though, the way the government is going here, it probably will be soon, along with one making it even harder for those not of native descent to get jobs.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
May 28, 2010 at 2:31 pm
My experience in IT though has been that outsourcing has been good (in the long run) for me. After outsourcing projects due to perceived lower cost and then seeing that the project was delayed in every case with several re-works and then finally bringing the projects in-house, employers I have had started getting smarter about it. They eventually scrapped outsourcing and just started compensating in-house employees a little better. In the end, keeping projects in-house saved them money.
I agree with this, and I think this trend will continue as people/businesses get smarter about outsourcing. However, I think some hard legislation also has to happen to supplement this trend as well. We can no longer afford to ship American jobs overseas IMHO. It is hurting our economy and particularly our American workforce. Hopefully, Obama can get something into law before his first term ends. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 28, 2010 at 3:00 pm
I think there is a misinterpretation between outsourcing and offshore outsourcing.
Example: IT staff can be outsourced to another company that is located right next door (or even in-house). We have outsourced for instance our hardware IT group: they replace servers when leasing expired, monitor and maintain availability of servers and network, pre-install new PC's according to business requirements and the like. Those folks share our offices and live in the same country (usually in the same city). I don't know (or at least I pretend not to know) if there's a wage difference or not... 😉
On the other side I've heard some rumor that the overall percentage of successful offshore projects vs. disastrous ones is not really something one would use to argue for such a concept. (successful = completed on time, within budget, meeting expectation and is effectively supported as requested).
[deep black humor ON] When the Iceland volcano erupted I first thought it's a meeting of the Offshore Outsourcing Proclaiming Assoc., that just physically demonstrated how much money they've burned so far... [deep black humor OFF]
May 28, 2010 at 3:07 pm
Legislation against outsourcing is a waste of lawmaker time and taxpayer money. If outsourcing were illegal, you will be paying considerably more money for most goods and services that you purchase. Outsourcing is good for the local economy as well as the global economy.
Outsourcing is not the cause of the current economy (which is well into recovery). The cause of the economic crisis is simply due to greed and a lot of people trying to get too much for nothing at all (keeping up with the jones' syndrome). Many people are defaulting on their own loans intentionally so they can get a handout from the government - thus the government has plenty to share in the blame with the purported "economic recovery" acts and packages.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
May 28, 2010 at 3:10 pm
lmu92 (5/28/2010)
I think there is a misinterpretation between outsourcing and offshore outsourcing.
I was referring to offshore outsourcing, particularly IT outsourcing to India and China. However, outsourcing any American jobs out of the country is not something I think we can afford to do anymore.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 28, 2010 at 3:15 pm
If outsourcing were illegal, you will be paying considerably more money for most goods and services that you purchase. Outsourcing is good for the local economy as well as the global economy.
Outsourcing is not the cause of the current economy (which is well into recovery). The cause of the economic crisis is simply due to greed and a lot of people trying to get too much for nothing at all (keeping up with the jones' syndrome). Many people are defaulting on their own loans intentionally so they can get a handout from the government - thus the government has plenty to share in the blame with the purported "economic recovery" acts and packages.
I didn't say make it illegal, I said penalize/take away tax breaks from countries that continue to do it. That will at curtail it anyway. Obama, definitely has this on his agenda, I hope he accomplishes it before his term ends. As I said before I don't think you could make it illegal anyway. The current economic crisis we are in is due to a number of factors, not just one. The one you state is a contributing factor, but shipping American jobs out of this country is another contributing factor in my opinion. Also, I don't see how shipping American jobs out of this country is good for our local economy. :w00t:
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 28, 2010 at 3:27 pm
TravisDBA (5/28/2010)
I don't see how shipping American jobs out of this country is good for our local economy. :w00t:
IT jobs - the argument is thin.
When considering all jobs across all industries, then manufacturing costs are decreased considerably due to resource availability and abundance. The US has many resources but cannot transform those resources as cheaply as many of the outsource countries can. The decrease in cost is passed along to the consumer. When prices are decreased, spending is encouraged and consumers will buy. The US has been outsourcing jobs for decades and it is that same outsourcing that contributed to the financial boom that we experienced within the last ten years.
It is for that same reason that Toyota has also outsourced some of its manufacturing to the US - they found that it was more economical to employ Americans and build some of the cars here using parts made in the US rather than make them overseas with their limited resources and then import to the US and pay import taxes. The same can also be said of the many electronics manufacturing companies based in Japan that have manufacturing facilities in the US as well as office buildings. It makes it cheaper for them to make the product and sell to you the consumer. If they could no longer use Americans to do these jobs created by Japanese companies (and therefor rightfully should be Japanese jobs) then you could easily be paying 2-3 times more for each blu-ray disc, home theater system, car stereo, LCD tv or cell phone that you purchase.
If we penalize companies for outsourcing, all bets will be off when it comes to a different country in regards to the US - we will be penalized right back. This will hit everybody in the pocket book.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
May 28, 2010 at 3:43 pm
I believe in free markets. I believe we'll all be better off the less government is involved in our lives with very specific exceptions where government oversight or control is absolutely necessary.
I worked for a company (let's call them Bullseye Inc) for many years and they are big believers in outsourcing IT to India. They pretend they don't use "outsourcing" by maintaining their own facility in Hydrobad (sp?), but that's what they're doing ... they just skip the middle man. The CIO is not a technical person, she is a manager that was in the right place at the right time ... so the decision wasn't made on the basis of getting the best technical bang for the buck ... it's just a trend that ignorant managers read about in magazines and newspaper articles and then implement without a realization of the real costs.
The problem is that the developers are so far removed for the business users (geographically, linguistically, culturally, etc.) that the development times are significantly longer and the end product almost never meets the requirements. So while you're paying less per head per hour, you need more heads for more hours to get the same amount done, which never really happens since you normally have to settle for much less than the end goal anyway. The cost comparison is very complex and is beyond a typical non-technical modern senior manager's ability to understand.
I'm all for a company like Bullseye Inc continuing to outsource in this manner and ending up being at a competitive disadvantage to companies that handle technology more intelligently. The big sad thing I see is that the U.S. is being transformed into a Euro style tax and spend nation which at some point will actually cause outsourcing to make financial sense when all things are considered.
You can't fight effectively against the global nature of the economy. Trying to keep companies from utilizing the most cost effective labor will just weaken U.S. companies in the global marketplace. We would be better off spending our energy on our steadily declining education system so that American workers would have more to offer.
May 28, 2010 at 3:50 pm
bteraberry (5/28/2010)
I believe in free markets. I believe we'll all be better off the less government is involved in our lives with very specific exceptions where government oversight or control is absolutely necessary.
Agreed
The big sad thing I see is that the U.S. is being transformed into a Euro style tax and spend nation which at some point will actually cause outsourcing to make financial sense when all things are considered.
Agreed. I don't like that direction either.
You can't fight effectively against the global nature of the economy. Trying to keep companies from utilizing the most cost effective labor will just weaken U.S. companies in the global marketplace. We would be better off spending our energy on our steadily declining education system so that American workers would have more to offer.
Well said!!
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
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