July 18, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Certification High School
July 18, 2009 at 1:16 pm
You mention Novell's CNE in your editorial, and twenty years ago I had considered trying to earn that certification as the company I worked for at the time had a Novell network (even though I didn't support it, I supported their Data General minicomputer system) and one of the requirements was that the employer had to certify that the applicant had at least one year experience with the Novell Operating System before they could earn the CNE. This meant you had to have some demonstrated real-world experience with the system.
That requirement is missing from Microsoft's certifications. With vocational schools training people that could possibly earn these certifications without putting it to practice in the real-world can de-value the certifications. Perhaps Microsoft should look at adding a new level of certification that doesn't require spending three weeks in Redmond and $18,000, but would be between their current MCITP certifications and the Microsoft Certified Master they have created. Perhaps this additional level could require an applicant to submit a CV or resume detailing their experience with Microsoft technologies, several (three or four) professional references, as well as taking slightly more difficult tests to test ones knowledge. The idea here, though, is to keep costs down to a couple of hundred dollars or so thereby keeping it within reach of most professionals.
I'm sorry, as much as I would not mind persuing the Certified master and Certified Architect programs (even though I have yet to even become MCITP), the costs for those programs just are out of reach for me personally, and would not be feasible for my current employer to pay either.
July 18, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Perhaps Microsoft should look at adding a new level of certification that doesn't require spending three weeks in Redmond and $18,000, but would be between their current MCITP certifications and the Microsoft Certified Master they have created.
I would not give credence to it because Microsoft changed the SQL Server 2005 exams in SQL Server 2008 because the pass rate is almost as low as the developer exams. The only area Microsoft is creating large certified is Windows exams. I remember Cisco had such a program with many schools but latter cancelled it because high school students if they don't love math counting octet is not something they want to do. There are many high school students who writes VB but not to the level of developing business applications.
Microsoft, Cisco and now Oracle if it buys Sun knows one day Uncle Sam and EU may want some docs showing why there are so few women and minorities among the certified, compiling useless data from high schools where exam results can be cooked by teachers may delay the Governments under paid lawyers case. On a side note I think Cisco have moved the program to community colleges which Microsoft already runs but not in development or SQL Server.
I don't think I will take Microsoft exam run by Microsoft employees because I and other users have corrected or changed both exams and feature implemenations so such people are actually disqualified to run these exams.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
July 19, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Gift Peddie (7/18/2009)
... Microsoft, Cisco and now Oracle if it buys Sun knows one day Uncle Sam and EU may want some docs showing why there are so few women and minorities among the certified, compiling useless data from high schools where exam results can be cooked by teachers may delay the Governments under paid lawyers case. On a side note I think Cisco have moved the program to community colleges which Microsoft already runs but not in development or SQL Server. ...
Considering that obtaining Vendor Certifications is voluntary, I really don't think there are legal grounds for any governmental organization to make such requests. If these certifications were required for employment by government regulations, then there would be a case for such action.
July 19, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Considering that obtaining Vendor Certifications is voluntary, I really don't think there are legal grounds for any governmental organization to make such requests. If these certifications were required for employment by government regulations, then there would be a case for such action.
I may not call these high school level agreements vendor certification because when colleges and community colleges get vendor agreement with Microsoft the requirements are very strict including only five per class yes only five students per class. The high school level agreements are one step above expensive public relations.
I prepared for Sun Java certified a while back and read a posting by a Russian professor of CS barely passing that base Java exam. That and the fact that women and minorities not passing them makes them worthy of questions all these companies earn at least one third of their revenue from Government contracts. The disadvantaged are locked out of career improvement credentials.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
July 19, 2009 at 8:02 pm
I tend to agree with you, Lynn. I think we ought to have a path of certifications that go from the basic to intermediate, to the advanced Master/Ranger program. It would be good to have people progress, and include some time on the job as a requirement. I'm sure people would still game the certifications, but many would just follow the rules.
July 19, 2009 at 8:02 pm
I also can't see the government getting involved in vendor level certifications, providing the opportunity is there equally for all groups.
July 19, 2009 at 8:32 pm
Gift Peddie (7/19/2009)
Considering that obtaining Vendor Certifications is voluntary, I really don't think there are legal grounds for any governmental organization to make such requests. If these certifications were required for employment by government regulations, then there would be a case for such action.
I may not call these high school level agreements vendor certification because when colleges and community colleges get vendor agreement with Microsoft the requirements are very strict including only five per class yes only five students per class. The high school level agreements are one step above expensive public relations.
I prepared for Sun Java certified a while back and read a posting by a Russian professor of CS barely passing that base Java exam. That and the fact that women and minorities not passing them makes them worthy of questions all these companies earn at least one third of their revenue from Government contracts. The disadvantaged are locked out of career improvement credentials.
The only thing the MCTS and MCITP would do for me as a hiring manager (which I'm not) is bring someone closer to being called for an interview. In addition they would actually get greater scrutiny than others as I have run into too many paper MCDBA's and MCSE's to place a lot of credence on the certifications alone. They may get an interview easier, but they better have superior knowledge to those who are relying solely on experience.
Also realize some people just don't test well. Test anxiety is a real issue for some people. My oldest daughter has problems with testing. She once had to take the USSF Grade 8 recertification test three times before she passed with a score of 75%, yet she was extremely knowledgable about the Laws of the Game and interpretting them both to the letter and the spirit of the game and was a an excellent referee. Oh, and the test at the time was a 100 question test, so each question was worth only one point. All certification says is that you have (supposedly) the knowledge but it does not always say how good you are at the task. I'd take my oldest daughter as a ref over quite a few of the more "experienced" referees I have had the pleasure of working with or observing.
So, the same goes with hiring DBA's, developers, system administrators, etc. The certifications may be nice, but their expereince and knowledge is what will get them the position. Personally, I'd like to get the MCITP certification as an acknowledgement of and validation of my experience and knowledge. Only problem is I just don't seem to have the time with everything else I have going on in my life. Same reason I have not persued my Doctorate, no time or money.
July 19, 2009 at 9:01 pm
I also can't see the government getting involved in vendor level certifications, providing the opportunity is there equally for all groups.
That is very nice point get random 1000 CS college graduates after one month of prep and let them take exams 70-536 C#, 70-455 and 70-446. I am saying even open book most minorities and women may not pass these exams. Microsoft stopped providing VC++ exams because the pass rate is too low, the old MCSD.NET most could not pass the MCPD upgrade exam so Microsoft had to create two exams instead of one. You also know there are very few upgrades from SQL Server 2000 to 2005.
I actually like 70-455 and respect 70-536 without the Microsoft provided prep books because I still think Microsoft needs to hire Richter or Herbert Schildt to write the C# base class exam book.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
July 19, 2009 at 11:29 pm
Gift Peddie (7/19/2009)
I also can't see the government getting involved in vendor level certifications, providing the opportunity is there equally for all groups.
That is very nice point get random 1000 CS college graduates after one month of prep and let them take exams 70-536 C#, 70-455 and 70-446. I am saying even open book most minorities and women may not pass these exams. Microsoft stopped providing VC++ exams because the pass rate is too low, the old MCSD.NET most could not pass the MCPD upgrade exam so Microsoft had to create two exams instead of one. You also know there are very few upgrades from SQL Server 2000 to 2005.
I actually like 70-455 and respect 70-536 without the Microsoft provided prep books because I still think Microsoft needs to hire Richter or Herbert Schildt to write the C# base class exam book.
Open book test?? Those are even harder for some people. The open book does you no good if you you don't know the material well enough to know where to look. Want proof, look at many of the posts here on SSC. Many of them could be answered if they just looked in BOL.
Your not convincing me to your side on this argument. I'm seeing someone who uses MS technologies but has some bias against MS for some real or perceived wrong perpetrated by MS.
No one (or company) is perfect. No one is going to write the perfect test, there will be errors to some level. I've seen it elsewhere. My test to become a Referee Instructor for AYSO. There was one question on the test with two answers, and the instructions said NOT to add anything that was not provided in the question.
Guess what, the context for the question was missing. Depending on where the foul occurred and what impact it had on the play was missing so either answer could be correct. The one I choose was "wrong", but after a good discussion with the instructors and the class, I was given credit for my answer.
Another good analogy, when life gives you lemons, make lemonade. I have learned over the years that you have to accept that things happen that you can't control. How you handle those situations speaks volumes about ones character. I'm not perfect and I know I have failed at times to live up to my own standards, but I still strive to meet them, and I try to set the example for others.
July 20, 2009 at 1:03 am
Most of the people take Certification exams because it makes their resume appear better. They do not take it to increase their knowledge or hone their technical skills. If we look at the size of the manuals today, by the time one gets through a manual and actually tries out things, that technology is on the way out. Certification is more checking the memorizing capability rather than the knowledge of that subject.
July 20, 2009 at 1:57 am
I was fascinated to see Steve's post on this subject this morning as only last week I obtained the MCITP: Database Developer 2008 qualification, and actually submitted a guide to the exams to SQL Server Central last night. I should stress that my guide gives an overview of how to prepare for the exam and subjects you can expect to see on the exam - it's effectively an enhancement of the preparation guide, not a "How to cheat" document.
I took 70-433 (Technology Specialist: Database Developer 2008) in June, passing with 1000/1000. And passed 70-451 (MCITP: Database Developer 2008) last week, with 962/1000. Now people may look at these scores and think the exams are easy. But any question is only easy if you know the answer.
I passed 70-433 using hardly any test questions. I used the preparation guide on the Microsoft Web site. I use SQL Server every day, so was quite well versed in many of the subjects, but a lot of the stuff I've learnt has improved my knowledge and made me a better all-round developer. I have a much greater understanding of the SQLCLR, for example.
70-451 is a much harder exam and I did utilise more test questions for this exam, but probably only one or two of the test questions I used appeared in a similar format on the exam. I read BOL a lot, as well as books, and I knew the subjects as much as I could.
I agree with those of you who say most people are happy to pass the exam without any knowledge of the subject. To me, this is not only cheating the examiner, but cheating yourself. If you claim you can do something but don't actually have the ability to back that claim up, you will be found out. I've seen lots of message boards on which people planning to take the exams are asking for answers to questions so they can learn them parrot-fashion. This is wrong and diminishes the achievements of those of us who honestly pass the exam.
If you use the guides and learn the skills, you'll feel a great sense of achievement when you pass. Don't cheat!
July 20, 2009 at 5:09 am
Raju Lalvani (7/20/2009)
Most of the people take Certification exams because it makes their resume appear better. They do not take it to increase their knowledge or hone their technical skills.
I couldn't agree more. And, what's more, the certifications aren't actually that good at honing people's technical skills. Any company that knows what it wants from its IT people realises this anomaly and so doesn't value the certificates. Until the various industry certifications can actually add real benefit for the employer, the decline in their perceived (and real) value will continue.
In my opinion, of course.....
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
July 20, 2009 at 5:25 am
I forgot to add that vendors would be happy to see more people getting certified, it adds value to the top and bottom lines 🙂
July 20, 2009 at 5:29 am
Certifications really form one leg of the golden triangle:
1. Education
2. Training
3. Experience
One might argue points 1 & 2 are the same but I'm thinking of Education as the theory, Training as the applied theory, and Experience as the applied training. If a point isn't there it's like a stool with a missing leg (it doesn't stand well on its own).
On their own and without experience, certs are basically worthless. But as one part of a comprehensive whole they can be valuable.
I just made up all that cr@p 🙂
James Stover, McDBA
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