August 25, 2009 at 1:31 am
I find it a interesting concept, What is the transitional point when you change from being a junior DBA to a Senior DBA. I mean how do you define it, Is it down to the number of years you have been employed as a DBA, or down to your knowledge of your product. Maybe the number of posts or topics you have created/read on sql server forums. or maybe certification might be the answer.
Well lets look at the knowledge angle, in theory if you know a product inside out, doesn't that imply your an expert, so a Senior DBA would be your title. Well maybe not, you can gain knowledge by reading every white paper and book, that would give you the knowledge but without the experience in applying that knowledge. so you are knowledgeable about a product but not experienced, could be the definition of a hobbyist perhaps. Certification is supposed to demonstrate an understanding of SQL Server up to a certain level but once again it can be achieved without experience, just based on knowledge.
What about experience and years in the job, some DBA's say junior is up to 2 years, if you have been using sql server longer than that, your a senior DBA. not quite sure i agree with that either.
In the past I have worked with lots of dba's. One DBA worked in investment banking for eleven years, senior right. He couldn't do anything with reporting services. He never got exposure to it in his job. So is he senior or not?.
Personally I think I will continue to call myself a DBA, not junior and not senior and leave it at that. Anything else would be pretensions of grandeur and I will leave that for others.
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August 25, 2009 at 1:50 am
Yea nice question and nice explanation from your point!
I agree that no Junior or Senior DBAs, sure that I meet someone who has over 5 years and they don't know many simple things about SQL Server, on the other side I meet people who has very little experience in year but he knows much things and in professional way!
August 25, 2009 at 9:55 am
Its a nice debate, as you have mentioned if a person works on the same environment and say its a stable platform without any problems and not much new development, only upgrade the existing system, then he/ she will not be exposed to any new things, my self i have worked on many companies, there is one where i worked was as i mentioned a stable, there was no rel life learning curve, its boring, i am not saying that there should be problems on systems, but when we have something new its interesting to work on , doesn't it ??
As Per me i agree, plain DBA neither junior or senior:-) , SQL is a vast area, and i cant see any one saying i know everything on SQL server. Sadly the industry expects a person to know everything, apart from other developers who can specialize in certain area of a programming language 🙂
August 25, 2009 at 11:44 am
One take on it, reasonably well-written, is here[/url]. Not sure I agree, but at least it's something.
Personally, I'd say the difference is based on the ratio of you asking questions vs answering questions, on the subject. That includes, how often do you have to look something up, as a form of asking. If you have something you need to do, and you can provide all the information on how to do it yourself, that's answering. And that's about as clear as mud, but it's how I think of it.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
August 25, 2009 at 12:33 pm
How about this: When things are really screwed up, are you more likely to be the one that screwed it up or the one that fixes it?
August 25, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Michael Valentine Jones (8/25/2009)
How about this: When things are really screwed up, are you more likely to be the one that screwed it up or the one that fixes it?
Or both?
Reasonably good test. Pretty much the same as mine.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
August 25, 2009 at 1:46 pm
I'm not sure that I agree with size as a good measure of skill. I think size comes into play if a company has large databases and needs someone to manage them. There are definitely different things to do if you have very large databases. However someone could manage a large database as poorly as they do a small one.
Or they might have a 2TB db that archives data and gets relatively little query traffic.
To some extent I think time of service comes into play when deciding on a title. If you have some level of experience working with the product, then you are senior in some way. Not necessarily more skilled, but it's likely you've seen more issues, upgrades, and have a good base of knowledge on which to pay someone.
I like GSquared's question of "do you ask more or answer more." To me that starts to show when you're a skilled DBA. However Jr and Sr do not necessarily mean skill. I don't think you can be a fantastic coder, with 2 years of experience, and be a senior. You just haven't had enough experience.
You might be worth a lot of $$, but I wouldn't necessarily convey the title. That comes over time, and negotiation. If you think you're worth it, make a case, argue with your boss, and see. Show that you solve lots of problems and that your skill AND experience level warrant the title.
August 25, 2009 at 3:11 pm
I would say that Junior DBA, DBA, and Senior DBA titles have there purpose.
The differences come with years of experience, knowledge of the product. With as large a product as SQL Server is, I don't consider mastering all parts of the product to be required. You can be a senior DBA without full knowledge of SSAS, SSRS, and SSIS.
Same goes for the other parts of SQL Server. If you were an expert in SSAS, but you didn't have a great level of knowledge of the Engine, or SSIS, or SSRS that should still be considered a senior DBA.
With as large a product as SQL Server is, mastering every aspect of the product would be next to impossible. Not to mention that the product is going to be released every 2 to 3 years which will make it next to impossible to master every part of the product every release.
August 26, 2009 at 7:06 am
I think its a term thats only relevant within the company you work for, and is dependant on the level of responsibility you have within the DBA team.
Factors mentioned before come into it, such as:
do you ask questions or answer them
are you the person people come to to resolve problems
do you get involved in design issues and strategy decisions
do you guide\teach\mentor others
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August 26, 2009 at 8:37 am
Got some nice replies so far, interesting to hear differing views.
Thinking about it more, I think that Title is more of a sign of recognition within an organisation, to differentiate between DBA's in a team. of course it means more money and more responsibility in some companies but it isnt a reflection of skill in my opinion
The main thing that stands out for me, is experience. of course like some people have suggested, you dont have to be an expert in all aspects of sql server, to be considered senior.
But isnt calling yourself a senior DBA, more of a ego thing than anything else. I have worked at companies where your title was everything, you aspired to the next level. to you, it engendered respect from other DBA's. and yet do you deserve the title?.
I dont personally like the whole concept of jnr or senior. It means little to me, as I cannot quantify how you achieved that title. were you in the right place at the right time, when promotions were being handed out. were you the only dba onsite and they needed to show that they have a senior dba in the team or do they placate you with no payrise but say you can call yourself a senior dba.
maybe I am a cynic, but when anyone says to me I am a senior DBA, I smile and say thats nice. tell me again, why do you need me to help you with this restore :-D. and dont tell me it doesnt happen, already happened to me several time for different companies.
I judge the seniority of a DBA by being there, and seeing them work. I have seen senior dba's who do not warrent the title. Any experienced DBA can form an opinion very fast on how good someone is.
But the bottom line is, If you consider yourselves a senior dba and use that title to get your own way with things. make sure that your skill/experience holds up. otherwise the fall can be very nasty.
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August 26, 2009 at 8:59 am
Titles are like certs and degrees. Some people have them because they reflect a degree of skill, knowledge, experience and wisdom. Some people have them because they passed a multiple-choice test. Some people have them because graduating dead last in a class of 10,000 still means you get a degree. And, of course, some people have them because they paid someone for it.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
September 4, 2009 at 5:02 am
GSquared (8/26/2009)
Titles are like certs and degrees. Some people have them because they reflect a degree of skill, knowledge, experience and wisdom. Some people have them because they passed a multiple-choice test. Some people have them because graduating dead last in a class of 10,000 still means you get a degree. And, of course, some people have them because they paid someone for it.
Still comes down to the fact of, is experience the main qualifer of someones ability/skill. Or do certs/titles/degrees actually add any actual value or just perceived value.
Anyone who has read my posts and topics, will know how I feel about certification and 'assumed' titles. Before I worked specifically as a DBA, I considered my working 'title' as database specialist.
I am still learning, and will always do so. I am just a DBA, nothing more and nothing less.
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September 14, 2009 at 11:35 am
I beleive Steve put it most succintly - " Show that you solve lots of problems and that your skill AND experience level warrant the title." You may not care for a prefix to DBA but organisations do, and from an organisational perspective it usually means more money and more challenges than just a DBA. Where I work, a DBA is one who can solve problems, is available as necessary , does a detail oriented clean precise job and is interested in learning. A senior DBA is one who can solve a broader ranger of problems, has good people skills, can offer a reasonable perspective on any issue even if he can't solve it, knows how to perform database design reviews and is up to date on current technology. Until recently they translated the last one to mean certifications but now it is not although they prefer you are certified since it is good marketing for them, but you dont have to. Again it is hard to draw lines on where these skills end and begin and they do differ from company to company also. There are companies where these things are bureaucracy pure and simple with no necessary improvement of skills also. For me, I chose to grow with the change in title and I have, that is all.
September 15, 2009 at 1:20 am
dma (9/14/2009)
I beleive Steve put it most succintly - " Show that you solve lots of problems and that your skill AND experience level warrant the title." You may not care for a prefix to DBA but organisations do, and from an organisational perspective it usually means more money and more challenges than just a DBA. Where I work, a DBA is one who can solve problems, is available as necessary , does a detail oriented clean precise job and is interested in learning. A senior DBA is one who can solve a broader ranger of problems, has good people skills, can offer a reasonable perspective on any issue even if he can't solve it, knows how to perform database design reviews and is up to date on current technology. Until recently they translated the last one to mean certifications but now it is not although they prefer you are certified since it is good marketing for them, but you dont have to. Again it is hard to draw lines on where these skills end and begin and they do differ from company to company also. There are companies where these things are bureaucracy pure and simple with no necessary improvement of skills also. For me, I chose to grow with the change in title and I have, that is all.
Just been speaking to a fellow dba about your post, my preferences arent that important, neither of us agree on your definition of a senior dba. if that is your definition of a senior dba i have been one for a very long time. good people skills are mandatory for a lot of roles and DBA is one of them. your definition of a senior dba is what i say a dba is, nothing to do with being a senior dba.
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September 15, 2009 at 6:28 am
Really - what you say a DBA is is something of a world standard then?? I am a little put off to be honest, your definition is yours and other people's is theirs...i told very clearly that these are highly variable and mostly company to company.
What you and your fellow DBA think of my definition is of no concern to me whatsoever and does not change one bit how senior DBA definitions are perceived where I am. People skills with application team are a huge and very important part of a DBA role, most companies do not want geeky super smart people who do not get along with the rest of the world - they want good understanding to implement security and standards in a cordial way with few battles.
Please show some respect for where others are coming from even if you do not understand or agree. I will refrain from responding to you hereafter.
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