April 5, 2009 at 10:51 pm
April 5, 2009 at 11:43 pm
I've read quite a few threads that seem like the poster is a "developer" or a "programmer" who wants to be a DBA, but has no clue what to do. This is rather frustrating, but I use the advice our grandmothers gave us: "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all."
That advice works really well on the internet.
So long, and thanks for all the fish,
Russell Shilling, MCDBA, MCSA 2K3, MCSE 2K3
April 6, 2009 at 12:11 am
Hi Steve
Yeah, I agree. It is not that hard to be civil to each other.
As a newbie, I fairly often scratch my head at some of the replies, but as you say it is reasonable that somebody posting a reply does not do free consulting per se.
Besides, if somebody such as myself has been given a few hints, then the process of figuring things out to a satisfactory conclusion will most likely result in that original poster (me) learning and understanding more in the long run than if they have a nice neat answer given to them on a platter.
Anyway, the're my thoughts on this matter.
Kind regards
Ross
April 6, 2009 at 2:01 am
The great thing about the internet and sites like this is that when you approach your work in a generic fashion, then it is easy to write in many different languages because essentially, they nearly always work in a similar fashion. Moving from Java to C# is easy if you understand the basics. Hashtables are nearly always the same. Moving from Prolog to SQL is not too bad. C as a grouding to understand data structures, memory managment is great. So I don't need to be an expert in any given language, when moving between them, I know what I want to do and have a good idea how to do it and the internet makes it easy for me to get the syntax or refine my idea of how to solve a problem.
I learned to program a while the internet was in it's infancy. To figure out problems, you had to work at it. Nowdays, with things like Java and .Net, then as I have said before, any idiot can start programming. The discipline isn't required and lots of people are looking for the easy option. And when they come up short, then some folks get aggressive. Look at road rage. Most rages are from people who are unskilled, inconsiderate and arrogant. Blame someone else for their own problems.
Anyhow, that's my rant over with.
April 6, 2009 at 2:07 am
Wholeheartedly agree. I've noticed an increase on a few other forums I frequent where the posters ask the simplest of questions where it is plainly obvious they haven't done a simple search of the forums or Googled for the answer. In this instance, it's sheer laziness that leads them to do it - I can't think of any other reason.
As someone who has taught themselves .NET and SQL (with the help of some great mentors, both in the flesh and on forums), I find it very frustrating that some people don't seem to make the effort to improve their own knowledge themselves - preferring it seems to "stand on the shoulders" of people kind enough to give their time and expertise for free.
Anyway, Monday morning rant over 😉
April 6, 2009 at 3:31 am
this 'rant' reminded me of a short piece in New Scientist a short while ago discussing why on line threads tend to get abusive more often than face to face conversations.
If you are interested it can be seen here... http://www.newscientist.com/blog/lastword/2008/07/net-rage.html
btw.
Wholehartedly agree, treat others as you would like to be treated.
Assumption is the mother of all F***ups
April 6, 2009 at 3:43 am
Very much agree,
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice !! 😀
I started my Career with SQL being thrown in at the deep end, and without sites like this, it would have made my life a whole lot harder 🙂 and i probably would not be where i am today.
(thanks to all who make these groups a reality, you really do a terrific job).
And i like the warm fuzzy feeling of helping someone who has a problem, sometimes people need a little guidance, but the bigger buzz is working it out for yourself after hitting your head off a brick wall for and finally realising why...
the sense of achievement and accomplishment is so much better, and you understand the mechanics behind it also...
Cheers
Leon
April 6, 2009 at 4:41 am
Well, I expect you'll get a lot more posts to this thread agreeing with your article, albeit (frustratingly) all from people who wouldn't commit that cardinal sin in the first place. The converted will stay converted and the unbelievers will continue in their rude and arrogant rut. Nonetheless, I still think you were right to say what you've said. Unless there's a line publicly drawn, a minority will assume that anything must, therefore, be acceptable.
However, what I think is irrelevant is the fact that almost everyone on SSC gives their time and knowledge for free. Even if they were paid for their input, I don't believe the distasteful postings would become any the less unacceptable. Whilst I appreciate the very democratic feel of the forums here, I don't feel direct enforcement of the terms and conditions is in the slightest heavy handed, and I hope you don't feel the need to justify yourself to us when you have to do it.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
April 6, 2009 at 4:58 am
Maybe I am known to some of you to have a deep passion for arguments and a temper to match in the threads I participate in. However there are times when I feel things become too personal and out of control, I just stop then and there and don't look back.
Forums have a way of sharpening the tonge and it definatly is not like face to face talk in real life. Also it is quite easy to misinterpreted what someone is trying to convey to you when you are reading a post. This is not particular anyones fault but it helps to keep in mind the mechanics of it all and act accordingly. Assume the other is not out to redicule you, and you be right 99% of the time.
And as pointed out, a well writen post takes tons of free time. And why would someone spend so much free time just to bring it to your face? It would not make any sense at all if that was what motivates people. Just the fact people take time for you to respond and and participate in your thread should be valued highly.
And with this in mind respect is in order.
April 6, 2009 at 6:02 am
I didn't catch the thread you referenced, but I've seen enough of those behaviors to appreciate the challenge! I'll add a few miscellaneous thoughts - none of which excuse bad behavior on the part of the poster, but might help to bucket them and evolve a strategy for dealing with them.
First, I wonder how often those "bad" posters are just agents of anarchy, those who just enjoy starting a fight in which they really have no interest in winning, just prolonging. I've long made it a practice to just disengage if I have any sense the the person isn't real in any aspect.
Related to these are the ones that have all the signs of having been run through a translation engine - nothing wrong with not having English as a language, but things do get lost in the translation.
Next, most people are pretty shy about posting their first question, and shyness often leads to awkwardness, especially if it wasn't an especially good question. I'd bet those who post more questions later or those that end up answering questions probably had a great first experience.
One behavior I saw recently at a Code Camp was someone wanting behavior from a product based on what seemed to be at first listen fairly absurd constraints. The speaker clearly thought so too, and tried to answer and then move on - because it was a hard problem either way, convince them to remove constraints or truly figure out a work around, but the person kept insisting on more, more. It wasn't that the person came across as bad, more of a frustration of "I know you can answer this and you're the expert, tell me!"
Food for thought on those answering posts - one of my sayings is that "you have to be in the right place in life to lesson some lessons", and after you've learned your own, it's often hard to be patient with those that havent.
I rarely participate in the daily conversations due to other demands on my time these days, but I still appreciate the ongoing and ever changing cast that does so much of the work in forums - I still send people here because I know they are highly likely to both get an answer and to be treated well. I'd hate to see that change because of a few knuckleheads (or a few more knuckleheads than a year ago), and sometimes that may require Steve to be the bad guy with those that won't try to work within the system. For those of you participating in the threads, I say give them what you can, but don't let them ruin it for you, and sometimes that will mean just unsubscribing.
Steve, on a side note, it would be really interesting to see if you can't find a way to identify/flag what those posts/posters might have in common. Are they all first time posters? All from the same geographic area? Poor grammar? Probably more subtle.
April 6, 2009 at 6:14 am
It is always important to be civil on forums and in life. However, I feel the frustration that develops when you simply cannot solve a problem. I am one of those developers who has spent the last six years trying to be a DBA -- not because I want to but because there are no DBAs where I work. I try and learn as much as I can when I get the opportunity, but there are some things that just go beyond my understanding, and I will not be able to solve those problems without a lot of research. The difficulty is knowing where to look and knowing what you are looking for. Try Googling something that has about 10 words in it and you're not exactly sure what you're asking for. You typically find a ton of completely unrelated junk and a mix of forum entries. Thank you to those who spend their time helping people like me on the forums.
In these tough economic times when companies begin to tighten their budgets by reducing their payroll, those of us left have a greater responsibility and with that comes a greater workload. We still want to get home to see the wife and kids and we have our other responsibilities outside of work like mowing the grass, changing light bulbs, etc., so working more hours is often not an option. When we can't solve a problem quickly and our productivity starts to slip, we worry that we could be the next ones to go. Sometimes you really want to learn what went wrong, but other times, you just want to fix it and get it behind you.
I guess what I'm saying, is that while it is never OK to use profanity or bite the hand of someone who is trying to help you, it is also nice to have a little more understanding when helping out. I completely understand that it is unfair to ask someone to spend a lot of time giving you a solution for free. I've also read threads on here about how to post questions to the forum -- what information to give, what examples to use, etc. They are great reads. However, sending that link to someone when they don't follow that advice is also curt. Maybe these threads should be required reading before someone can post a question. It would certainly reduce the frustration of those trying to help and maybe it would make those who are posting questions understand a little more about what is required to get help. There are no free handouts in life, you've got to fill out the proper paperwork (in triplicate) first.
April 6, 2009 at 6:18 am
I am not sure I fully agree with you... Yes, I acknowledge that "do unto others as you would have them do to you" is a good axiom to live by, but you seem to have completely ignored the other side to this discussion.
First, there are many sites on the web that purport to be "experts" who in fact, seem more to be people who want others to think they are experts. There is one particular site (whose name I will not besmirch here) that deals with Excel that is almost laughable. They call themselves "the Excel experts" and yet every time any of us go to that site, loaded with MVP's, they cannot answer much at all. Instead, they simply throw the "did you try this" question back at you. If they are experts, where are the answers (instead of suggestions to do constant hit or miss, did you try this).
Second, too many sites are populated by posters who want the world to know how deep their knowledge is. Ask them a simple question about something and you get either a terse response, as though your an idiot, or you get a response so laden with leading edge techno-speak that gleaning any help is almost impossible.
Third, too many sites offer help, and then either don't want to provide it, or do not actually have the knowledge to provide it. In this I am thinking again of a very particular site for a very popular product where my crew spends more time educating the "help people" than they do getting any answers!
SSC is a very good site and I have recommended it to associates, but I think you need some balance in this discussion - if you open a site and allow people to post questions, I don't think its wrong of those people to want good answers - not more questions, not ego-flexing, not marketing in help disguise. (Not suggesting SSC does any of this, but many sites do).
I also think its understandable when people get frustrated and fire off angry posts and emails. That is, there must be some responsibility with the site founders that you represented something, and someone feels you are not delivering. If they misread what you represented, fine, that needs to be clarified. But if you offer help, and then start complaining that people didn't 'do this first' or 'do that first', I don't think that is really fair. They may have misconstrued what help you were offering, but that is the site's fault for not making that clear.
Manners ARE important yes, but living up to what any site represents is equally important - and if that cannot be lived up to, or if that has some special definition, then it should clearly posted on the site. Otherwise, its all subjective and to the user, it is likely also frustrating as all-get-out, so its not that hard to understand where the frustration comes from.
April 6, 2009 at 6:25 am
Steve, first thank you, thank you, thank you - for the best SQL Server online resource to help this newish DBA get up to speed on the myriad features, capabilities and idiosyncracies of SQL Server. In fact, scratch "online": this site has answered more questions than any book I've purchased, and I have several.
I think the vast preponderance of posts to this site are genuine, respectful, and courteous. Online, it's easy and even encouraged to do something that is squelched in person: lose your temper. Be a brat. Hey, who's really looking, right?
As a reader of the occasionally juvenile whining, I can say I have less patience with them than you experts seem to have when you actually respond to them, which speaks highly of your professionalism. Frankly, even if I'm reading a thread I'm keenly interested in, I tend to click off to somewhere else when I get to "Hey, your stupid code didn't fix my oh-so-important problem!!!" I just don't have time in my day to read rants.
So here's a suggestion, worth nothing maybe: if all you SQL Experts out there simply stopped replying when things turn nasty - stop trying to help, stop attempting to civilize them, stop doing what you are passionate to do (solve problems) - just walk away, I think the problems will resolve themselves.
I can assure you most of us out here won't mind a bit!
Thanks again,
Rich Mechaber
April 6, 2009 at 6:44 am
rmechaber (4/6/2009)
Steve, first thank you, thank you, thank you - for the best SQL Server online resource to help this newish DBA get up to speed on the myriad features, capabilities and idiosyncracies of SQL Server. In fact, scratch "online": this site has answered more questions than any book I've purchased, and I have several.I think the vast preponderance of posts to this site are genuine, respectful, and courteous. Online, it's easy and even encouraged to do something that is squelched in person: lose your temper. Be a brat. Hey, who's really looking, right?
As a reader of the occasionally juvenile whining, I can say I have less patience with them than you experts seem to have when you actually respond to them, which speaks highly of your professionalism. Frankly, even if I'm reading a thread I'm keenly interested in, I tend to click off to somewhere else when I get to "Hey, your stupid code didn't fix my oh-so-important problem!!!" I just don't have time in my day to read rants.
So here's a suggestion, worth nothing maybe: if all you SQL Experts out there simply stopped replying when things turn nasty - stop trying to help, stop attempting to civilize them, stop doing what you are passionate to do (solve problems) - just walk away, I think the problems will resolve themselves.
I can assure you most of us out here won't mind a bit!
Thanks again,
Rich Mechaber
Up until a week or two ago, I'd have agreed with you wholeheartedly. However, in the "T-SQL Rant" thread that was mentioned in Friday's editorial, I saw something I never expected. Someone who started off on a rant and then became more and more aggressive through the frustration of thinking himself misunderstood was turned around completely by the patience of some of the forum's most knowledgeable and prolific posters. The poster found, and had the decency to publicly admit, that he'd finally been shown some of his fundamental assumptions about working with sets were flawed and that there was a better way to do things. Personally, I didn't see the potential for the original poster's opinion changing, saw little to think any attempt to do so was worthwhile and would never have had the patience to get anywhere near success. I was evidently wrong.
Now all I'll admit is that I've just as much to learn about the best way to moderate the SSC forums as I have about the product on which they're based.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
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