November 30, 2008 at 10:27 pm
I realized recently that I've become complacent as regards to training on my job as a DBA for a medium-sized company.
It also doesn't help that I'm 100% self-taught, and even though I've been doing this for the last 8 years, I KNOW I must have some bad habits that could be eradicated by proper training.
I'm looking for advice on a path to take. My inclination is to get texts on the subject and read them, as opposed to taking a class or obtaining certification. I'm primarily interested in improving my ability to architect and design large applications, along with performance efficiency and tuning.
Moving from an intermediate level to an advanced level, has anyone found the class or certification approach to be more effective than reading texts solo?
Out of the plethora of SQL texts on the market, are there any specific ones that should be recommended over others?
Thanks for your time,
JK
December 1, 2008 at 10:48 am
I am interested to know as well
Personally I think
Certifications like 70-431, 443, 444 for MCITP: DBA
and advanced books like
Inside T-SQL series
It's a never-ending road, sadly 🙁
December 1, 2008 at 11:13 am
The Microsoft classes are geared towards teaching the exam, not getting you better at strong skills.
Really you need one of a few things. A custom class from End to End Training, I'm a partner there, SQL Skills, or someone like that who will give you custom training.
Or attend some of the custom classes offered by experts. Itzik Ben-Gan does some for Solid Quality Mentors, and there are others depending on what exactly you are looking for.
To be advanced, a lot of it is self study and work. You have to practice things. I'd really recommend hitting something like SQL Pass and going to advanced sessions (or the pre-cons) or hitting events like SQL Saturday, and finding someone that challenges you with their work and practicing with it.
December 1, 2008 at 11:23 am
Thanks for that, I've added 3 of the Inside SQL books to my Christmas wish list (what a Geek, right?).
I realized I also may have an irrational dislike for the classroom/certification approach.
I've interviewed over 30 candidates for a junior position in my department over the last few years. Most of them had the typical alphabet-soup resume, and almost all had some kind of college degree as well as technical certification. Yet this didn't seem to translate into actual ability. Of the 3 that were hired over that time, the most successful one was a self-taught college drop-out.
On the other hand, I know that the holes in my own personal skillset have bitten me in the nether regions when I started working on a table with 250 million + records and suddenly my system performance dropped out the bottom. It was a long road to figure out the bad architecture decisions and fix them.
I can just see someone who is a true expert in the field look over my work and say "why don't you do it this way, it would be so much better...."
JK
December 1, 2008 at 11:30 am
I'd go look at what's offered by SQL Skills, Solid Quality mentors, Scalability Experts and see if something fits. Lots of those people who deal with large systems are at PASS, TechEd, etc., so it might be worth looking one of them up and perhaps engaging them for a day or two. That could be really valuable.
If you want to talk with someone about large scales, go read the SQLCat team's site (http://sqlcat.com/). They work with really, really large groups.
December 1, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (12/1/2008)
I'd go look at what's offered by SQL Skills, Solid Quality mentors, Scalability Experts and see if something fits.
Agreed. Where in the world are you based?
I've added 3 of the Inside SQL books to my Christmas wish list (what a Geek, right?).
Which one didn't make the list?
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
December 1, 2008 at 2:45 pm
GilaMonster (12/1/2008)
Steve Jones - Editor (12/1/2008)
I'd go look at what's offered by SQL Skills, Solid Quality mentors, Scalability Experts and see if something fits.Agreed. Where in the world are you based?
I've added 3 of the Inside SQL books to my Christmas wish list (what a Geek, right?).
Which one didn't make the list?
My company is based out of Los Angeles. Where this December is a sunny 84 degrees outside, :-/
I didn't add the Storage Engine (2005), Sql Server Tools (2005), the books for v2000 or the not-yet-released ones for 2008.
Are there any that you consider must-haves?
JK
December 1, 2008 at 3:52 pm
The storage engine is interesting since you learn how things work inside the server. I'd also pick up Grant Fritchey's Execution Plan book from Red Gate software.
Is there something in particular you want to learn?
December 1, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (12/1/2008)
The storage engine is interesting since you learn how things work inside the server. I'd also pick up Grant Fritchey's Execution Plan book from Red Gate software.Is there something in particular you want to learn?
Thanks, I'll add both of those as well.
I don't have a specific area I'm trying to remedy -- the funny thing is, I'm doing quite well on my job, no recent problems, etc. etc. But recently came across an article on SQL Server Central (don't remember which) that was written by someone with a noticeably higher level of expertise than myself.
I manage 5 others who do both database and software dev, all of which look up to me as an expert in SQL, and I realized I'd fallen into a complacency of thinking I'm knowledgable enough, merely because I know more than those in my department.
Also, because I'm self-taught, I believe that the biggest areas I'm lacking in are probably those I'm unaware of -- blind spots, you could say.
I'm curious if those here, who are truly expert at the more advanced levels of SQL, found more benefit to a textbook approach, an in-class approach, or a certification study?
JK
December 1, 2008 at 5:59 pm
You noticed that the self taught guy did the best out of your employees...
... continue the trend and continue to teach yourself... start answering questions on this forum... compare with other folks examples on the same threads...
You won't find more real world and, heh... somtimes absolutely insane problems anywhere in the world.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
December 1, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Certification (or working towards it) is useful in that it will give you some exposure to aspects of SQL that you might never touch otherwise ... service broker, XML, the differing high availability strategies etc. It won't make you an expert in any one, but it's always good to know your options.
The Inside SQL books are excellent ... the Storage Engine won't help you much in writing queries but it will take you to another level in understanding what SQL is doing under the covers. I would recommend reading it before Query Tuning. You might want to look at Microsoft Books 24x7 which works out a little cheaper than buying the paper copies individually, and includes a lot more besides.
A good source of free knowledge (other than this site of course) are the SQL team blogs, MVP blogs and MS white papers.
December 1, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Tend to agree with Jeff here. If you have nothing specific to learn, start learning what interests you and the forums here are a great place to apply the things that you learn in books.
Nothing wrong with certification if it motivates you, but be careful about learning v memorizing. The tests do not really measure skills in the real world.
December 2, 2008 at 9:32 am
matt stockham (12/1/2008)
Certification (or working towards it) is useful in that it will give you some exposure to aspects of SQL that you might never touch otherwise ... service broker, XML, the differing high availability strategies etc. It won't make you an expert in any one, but it's always good to know your options.
Agreed...I'm working on my MCTS for SQL 2005 but I plan to emphasize my experience first on the resumes and keep the certification at the end, probably as part of the education/certification section in the resume. It will be one of many hooks the HR people can search for but in the end, experience will count the most (if the interviewer is doing it right).
Gaby________________________________________________________________"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not." - Albert Einstein
December 2, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Gaby Abed (12/2/2008)[hr
Agreed...I'm working on my MCTS for SQL 2005 but I plan to emphasize my experience first on the resumes and keep the certification at the end, probably as part of the education/certification section in the resume. It will be one of many hooks the HR people can search for but in the end, experience will count the most (if the interviewer is doing it right).
Actually, that brings up another question that's been bugging me. (Sorry to hijack this thread a bit) I'm a skilled DBA but NOT a trained hiring manager. Yet the HR department cannot interview potential cadidates for technical capability -- so that falls to me.
I find myself in a position of having to review resumes of applicants and interview candidates myself. I've done this many times over the past few years, but I'm always worried that I may overlook someone who could do an excellent job. And many of the people who wind up in the interview room seemed great on paper but interviewed poorly.
Of late I've started a culling step whereby I took a particularly complex SQL query I wrote, remove all comments and documentation and sent it to all applicants and asked them to re-document the query, explain what it does and give their opinion of its efficiency.
So far, the only effect this has had is to reduce the number of interviews, because only 1 in 40 (by actual count) will even answer the request.
Does anyone have any opionions about this practice? Good idea? Bad idea?
JK
December 2, 2008 at 1:08 pm
If only 1 in 40 are capable enough to answer it and bothered enough to reply, then you have weeded out 39 candidates that you wouldn't want to employ. Sounds good to me!
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