January 24, 2008 at 10:08 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item A Lack of Data Quality
January 25, 2008 at 1:29 am
But what's the difference between that and for example someone working and claiming unemployment benefit? Or, as happens in the UK, employing one person legally on paper then splitting their after tax income between three employees (usually immigrants) to save on employer's contributions.
It's all illegal full stop.
And someone is losing out. "Oh it's only the government" you may say but it's us taxpayers actually who are footing the bill. And yes I'd find a way to shop either of the above.
January 25, 2008 at 3:09 am
I wouldn't turn anyone in for this, although if it was one of my own employees, I'd chase them for the money.
However, I did kinda have this happen to me. I got overpaid when I left my own job by a considerable amount. The way tax works it was hard to work out exactly how much, but I put aside the amound I thought I had overpaid, and told my previous emplyer they had overpaid me, and could they let me know by how much (it was a Government department, by the way.)
They, took more then a month to come back, which was seriously annoying, as it made it hard to budget for that month, and when they did, over the phone, the figure was about £500 less then I expected. Bonus, I thought, and spent the £500 paying off some debts. They had said they'd write to me saying how to pay them back.
When the letter came back the figure was pretty much what I had originally thought, ie: £500 more then I had left. I was livid. E-mails and letters went back and forth, even this figure turned out to be wrong, and I put in a Freedom of Information request for their policy on overpayment, and asking how much they had written off. They came back climing not to have written anything off, and their official policy stated that if they had given you sufficient reason to beleive the money was yours, then you didn't have to pay it back.
Since one of the e-mails included the person who had given me the original figure admitting to this, I e-mailsed them and stated that in accordance with thier own policy I wan't going to pay them back the £500, but if they agreed they could have the rest back, as originally stated, otherwise they could take me to court. This was a year and a half ago and I haven't heard from them since. So, despite me telling a Government department that they'd overpaid me, and being willing to pay them back, I have not paid them a penny because of their own incompetance. Ridiculous, hey.
January 25, 2008 at 5:54 am
I would use all the extra money received to buy that same company's products, then tell them my bad! if they find out. But at least it looks good for their sales, and they get some money back that way.
January 25, 2008 at 6:13 am
If the company can afford to pay someone for five years and not realise that they were out of pocket, that's their lookout and their problem.
Perhaps the person in question couldn't get to the bank in the last five years to tell them of the problem, and why should he suffer the inconvenience of going to the bank, or trying to get through the telephone system. I don’t but I don’t think fault lies with him…
Me personally I would want it sorted so I didn’t get stung for a big bill when it was finally discovered, i.e. having to pay it back. But the fault is definitely that of the company and their incompetence not the unfortunate or fortunate victim ?
Gethyn Elliswww.gethynellis.com
January 25, 2008 at 6:20 am
It is argued, in the example, that the entire responsibility is on the former employee. Now if the employee had gone in and stole that amount of cash, I would agree. And while he was remiss for not telling Avaya about the situation, why is Avaya not responsible for their own employee management?
Does payroll exist on some other planet, speaking an alien language and never communicating with the balance of management? Possible but I seriously doubt it. In allowing this to go on by not having controls in place, Avaya tacitly accepts partial responsibility. And if Avaya is a public company, I'll bet there are any number of SOX violations because of this. So why is Avaya not held at least partially responsible for the situation?
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Buy the ticket, take the ride. -- Hunter S. Thompson
January 25, 2008 at 6:41 am
This actually happened to me...twice! Both times I reported it; either to my supervisor or the payroll department.
Take care,
Bert
"Speculations? I know nothing about speculations. I'm resting on certainties. I know that my Redeemer lives, and because He lives, I shall live also." - Michael Faraday
January 25, 2008 at 7:05 am
Looks to me that what really got him in trouble was for falsely impersonating an employee to get the retirement money. That is most definatly a crime, the company being too stupid to realize they are paying someone that is not working there...... well, if *I* was on the jury they would have to argue really hard for me not to let the guy go.
Personally I would have notified HR, but then as a DBA I HOPE I do the right things when it comes to data and realize sometimes our systems aren't 100% foolproof.
January 25, 2008 at 7:32 am
I know this seems like a grey area or a victimless crime to a lot of people, but if you're receiving something you didn't earn then you should report it. There are no victimless crimes. Somebody's paying for it somehow. Sure, the 5 years of income didn't come directly out of a single person's pocket, but maybe the employees got smaller bonuses, or someone was let go because they had less cash than they expected too. Or maybe the business had to pass the loss on to consumers in the form of higher prices.
If this happened to me, I'd be incredibly tempted to not report it, but I know I would report when all was said and done. Not only because it's wrong to keep it, but I wouldn't want to live with the feeling that any day their lawyers will come knocking on my door demanding that I repay the whole thing (and then going to court...). Who wants to live like that? Honestly, the lengths that people will go to to make a quick buck astounds me. They jeopardize their safety, their family, and in many cases their freedom (as in staying out of prison) just because they don't want to actually earn what they need (or want).
January 25, 2008 at 7:35 am
Somebody has to pay the bill if courts fail to get it back for the company. In this case, the persons involved the manager who didn't make sure it's off the rolls, the HR person who didn't do the head counts whom he is paying, the DBA or data entry person who missed to correct the data and the business itself who has such a lackadaisical culture.
January 25, 2008 at 7:37 am
"However I have a hard time breaking personal loyalties for somewhat victimless crimes."
There is always a victim to a crime. It may be the stakeholders of the company; it may be the HR manager that gets fired over this, but there are always victims.
On the other hand, this story has one of those "What the @#$@?" factors. How could that go on for 5 years? Don't they have SOX in place?
January 25, 2008 at 7:41 am
Well, this one's simple for me. I would notify them ASAP and return the money. It's not my money. Never mind that it's their incompetence. The mistake will eventually be discovered, and then there will be a big problem.
However, any interest earned I would consider to be mine because they are not taking care of business.
January 25, 2008 at 7:44 am
I also think it's morally wrong to turn a blind eye if you see it going on.
If you don't want to snitch, then you can always anonymously send a hint that the payroll department should check on such-and-such department because something's not right.
If it's a friend, encourage him/her to do the right thing. My husband knew someone who was working for a new company while still collecting a paycheck from another company. He was a salesman, so he was "on the road" all the time. My husband spent 1.5 years trying to convince this guy to do the right thing and officially quit the first job.
As for me, if I got a check that I knew I didn't earn, I'd return the money right away - not wait for them to figure it out. I know how much money is not mine - I wouldn't try to take advantage of it.
January 25, 2008 at 7:54 am
I've always been amused by the term "victimless crime." There is no such creature. That is the attitude that allows juries to award outrageous awards knowing that the "victim" is probably at fault. Justice is damaged every time someone lets a "victimless crime" slide.
January 25, 2008 at 8:00 am
Sounds like I've got the same opinion as most in here. A buddy of mine actually had this happen to him, but it was due to an issue with his bank. I don't recall the exact reason he was expecting the bank to give him a large sum of money, but the, in essence, paid him twice! He attempted to call it to their attention, both in person and in writing multiple times, but nobody seemed to care. He documented his attempts and sat on the money for over a year. At this point, I think he's enjoying a big screen HDTV for his troubles!
I don't fault him for it, as he tried as best he could to give the money back, the bank's failure to act is nothing more than a way of stating that they do not feel as if they have a claim on the money. There's a point where the burden of this mistake on the bank and/or company's part is significant enough to warrant compensation, either by being allowed to keep any generated interest or a portion of the original money.
Would I turn someone in if they had this happen to them and instead of trying to give the money back, they kept it? No. This is their responsibility, not mine. I can only try to encourage them to do the right thing.
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