How Hard is Search?
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Actually I know it's quite hard. Over the years we've tried 4 or 5 different engines, including a couple versions of the Microsoft Full-Text Search, and we've struggled to get a good search most of the time. Anything beyond exact matches seems to be a rather complicated endeavor and a full-time job. In the new site (hopefully coming in two weeks), we're actually going to be using a custom Google search since they seem to have gotten down most of this "search" thing.
However Microsoft hasn't. I'm going to bang on the Live Search folks here because I'm just disappointed. I've been trying to give them a chance with the "Live Search" because, well I like Microsoft and their tool set. It hasn't seemed to work well, so I usually end up abandoning it and heading to Google, but recently I decided to give the SQL Server 2005 Books Online Scoped Search a try as I was doing some QOD stuff.
It seems to dig through Books Online pretty quickly and it finds stuff for me to link to in the Question of the Day, so in that sense it works well. However from the image above, you can see there are issues. If you click on the image, you'll get the full size version, and you can then see what's wrong: my second set of results is Japanese.
Now I've studied a little Japanese, but I really have no interest in translating the sp_addalias command from that language. I'm on an English computer, in the US, all sorts of ways to detect this and yet I get the same entry for the first two results, but in different languages! How hard can it be to exclude results from other languages? Apparently this is hard because it's plagued MSDN and TechNet for quite a few years. I've tended to ignore it as a bug, but when the scoped search returned results, I was a little ticked.
I used the tools on the site and reported the problem to the scoped search team. I got an email saying they couldn't reproduce it, so I sent the image above to them along with a short explanation. I actually searched on a few other terms and got results from the en-us, ja-jp, de-de, and zh-cn localizations of BOL. All on the first page! I also compared the results from the main live search (no scopes or filters) and Google (both the home page and /Microsoft). In both cases Live returns foreign language results on the first page while Google does not. No wonder people use Google more.
I did get a note back explaining that it's a "Live" problem and by default the site searches in all languages. You have to change your settings to limit it to English (or any other language). Once I did that, it seemed to clear up in my testing. Not a very "useful" default, though it's a "smart option" to allow this to be changed.
But come on Microsoft, you can do better. Most of us would just as soon use your tools, build new applications, and pay you for your software. It works well in general and we support you. But you have to DELIVER stuff that works well. It has to do what you say, but more importantly it has to work without getting in the way of what we're trying to do. Without little, annoying, and stupid bugs or defaults that developers thing make sense but the rest of us don't.
I'll mention that as I was trying out different searches, I was amazed to find out the searching for "SQL Server" brings up many results, including a number of other SQL learning sites on both Live and Google. "SQLServerCentral.com" appears on page 1 of Google's results, seventh down by my count. On MSN? Page 8 with 10 or so results per page (I assume that's not personal).
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The pain at my site is more profound, Google desktop search is blocked because you have the option to cach on Google's servers. I have to use MS desktop search and it is buggy, I can't event search for instance names on my desktop becuase it apparently sees \ as a special character!
Andrew
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Hi Steve,
I agree totally, Microsoft haven't quite got their heads around search tools yet. They had a really nice little tool called LookOut, which was supplied as an unsupported add-on for Outlook. You specified what Outlook or filesystem folders you wanted to search, and it indexed them to enable really fast searching of your emails and files.
I went looking for an update, and was re-directed to desktop search. Okay i thought, obviously this is the replacement, so I downloaded and installed it.
After 5 minutes of using it, I de-installed it again, and went back to using LookOut. All I wanted was to search my emails for a particular issue, not the entire internet! And I wanted it to be quicker than the standard Outlook search, not slower
David
If it ain't broke, don't fix it...
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"Microsoft haven't quite got their heads around search tools yet"
I disagree. I disagree with the word "quite". They just plain have not. Granted, an intelligent search engine must be difficult to write but how is it that this little ±1998 upstart got it right in the beginning, with far less money that MS had when they started.
Google have cracked the search engine arena and there is no room for anyone else. At least, not unless you can better Google. I would imagine that most people who search on Live due so because it's the default search engine on a PC and the likes of my mother do not know how to change it.
I find it easier, faster and more accurate to use Google to search Ms sites than their own engine.
My biggest pet hate with their search, other than accuracy, is duplication...
Anyway, coffee has now kicked in and I have finished my rant
Cheers,CrispinI can't die, there are too many people who still have to meet me!It's not a bug, SQL just misunderstood me!
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Every now and then I try out the Microsoft search process to see it has improved. So far I always go back to Google.
Even when searching for items on the MS site Google gives me better results. Most recently I wanted the 3175 Hotfix rollup for SQL 2005, and searched for the download page on MS, asking to search everything at MS. No result. I tried the same keywords in Google and it was on page 1. It is much the same when I try the MS search for a KB article...
Needless to say, I have not even tried a trial install of MS Desktop Search, as my expectations for it are so poor.
Original author: https://github.com/SQL-FineBuild/Common/wiki/ 1-click install and best practice configuration of SQL Server 2019, 2017 2016, 2014, 2012, 2008 R2, 2008 and 2005.
When I give food to the poor they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor they call me a communist - Archbishop Hélder Câmara
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I do not agree completely on the language issue. That might apply to native English-speakers, but my native languages are Dutch and French.
Being an IT-er, I usually carry out search statements in English - also on BOL. I usually do not bother searching in other languages. However, it is a pleasant surprise to see a link to the BOL article in English followed by links to the same article in Dutch or French, without having to carry out extra steps.
This has nothing to do with my understanding of the article, but with the fact that I am obliged to report to end-users in their language. Having the BOL or KB article in Dutch or French saves me the burden of having to look up what the localized variant of Microsoft's products uses as menu option, title and so on. For example: "Tools" is called "Extra", "User Accounts" becomes "Gebruikersbeheer" or "Gestion Utilisateurs"... you see the problem?
You could of course argue that even I do not need a link to the Japanese of Russian article, but where do you draw the line? West-European languages? Same alphabet (Latin)?
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Since its introduction, I've used http://www.vivisimo.com almost exclusively, primarily because of the result grouping. The exceptions are generally google:define and Live Search when I am looking for something very specific within Microsoft and believing I'll get the right answer.
FWIW, I recently discovered Ixquick (http://us.ixquick.com/). Its original claim to fame is the removal of search activity records within 48 hours. Oh, and SQLServerCentral is the 4th entry (2nd non-sponsored) on the first page.
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Buy the ticket, take the ride. -- Hunter S. Thompson -
That's true. When I am looking for tech info on the MS site, there are many times that I could not find what I wanted using the site search, but doing a Google on the same keywords brought up much better information on MS own site!
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-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
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Google is your closest friend, Yahoo is a close friend ...
RegardsRudy KomacsarSenior Database Administrator"Ave Caesar! - Morituri te salutamus."
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I have to agree with rudy here. I'm a serial Googler - I use it for everything. Before Google was big, Yahoo was my search engine of choice. I've tried Live Search a few times, each time hoping that the experience is better than the last. But it leaves me disappointed, not coming close to the quality of results as Google or Yahoo.
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Google search uses very complex calculus and the business structure depends on it so math is king. If you think in Boolean until the rest of the pack stop using human search, results from Google will be more relevant.
How hard is search? easy just tell the search engine where to look.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie -
I know that there are people out there reading and working with multiple languages. That's cool, wish I could, etc. And Live gives you the option to search in any number of languages. The option link isn't very obvious, but once you get there, you see about 40 or 50 languanges listed and you can check any number of them.
BUT THE DEFAULT should be your language. If you're French, search only French stuff and add a nice link at the bottom "Search in other languages".
I'm getting tourqued with Google. Their PageRank has so many shopping sites coming up that it's getting hard to use. But it's still better than Live. I used to use Yahoo, moved because Google worked better.
Search is hard. I understand that there's too much brainpower for me to do it, so I definitely don't want the search gig from MS at any price. But there are some smart, smart, very educated math and statistical people that can work with this stuff. Hire them and then give the QA work to grandmothers, corporate developers, soccer moms, and other professionals that actually need to use the results.
Try the same search on Live, Google, and Yahoo. The marketing people are the problem because all the MS crap is ranked too high and gets in the way of real results that many of us want. I know you want to promote your brand, but understand this:
You're the biggest software company in the world. Every single person knows who you are and most of them use or have used your products. We don't need you to try and sell us on MSDN, TechNet, or any of your other supported sites. We'll go there if they have what we need. Stop acting like you're the little guy competing with OS/2 and Solaris. You're not.
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I use Clusty! http://clusty.com/ well and Google.
Has some nice features, like grouping into categories. Makes it a lot easier at times to find what you are looking for.
For the desktop and email I use Coveo Desktop search. Works great. I used to use Google, but the part of Google's webiste is blocked from work ;(
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for desktop search i use Copernic .i've been using it for last 1 year and its great. worth a try.
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Yes, I too Google, and I am ashamed to say I am adicted to Google. Start the 12 step program angain in an hour (take 12 steps back, turn and run).
Anyway look at Lives Options? And you might find the defaults were poor choice more than anything. Google is great but I have found cases where people have pushed useless sites to the top of the list. Google is far more mature and their creaters came from some experience not really a true start up in the sense of start up.
I do have to say I love Live Searchs image search far better thou.
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