May 8, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item How Do You Find a DBA?
May 11, 2009 at 2:20 am
May 11, 2009 at 4:21 am
I'm a shy guy, and don't find it too easy to build a network of folks. Does that mean I should be disregarded?
I have had people ask me if I know anyone who is looking for a new job as .... and I have sometimes mentioned names of people who I get along with, but I may not have not actually worked with them (especially in large orgs), so it still doesn't bypass the problems of finding the right person.
I saw one job advert once, and they asked the applicants to write the old arcade game Missile Command in Java and send it with the application. That separated the men from the boys (or women from the girls). I'm sure it only took a few seconds to evaluate. Not sure how many new requests for help with code appeared on the internet over the following weeks.......
May 11, 2009 at 4:51 am
Steve,
I think it depends on what you're looking for - generally I use my network of contacts first, see if anyone is looking or they know someone.
I've got some intersting results in the past. had one person who purported to be a dba and asked them how to do a restore. They didn't know how...
Mark
May 11, 2009 at 5:04 am
Interesting editorial. As someone looking for work (in the UK), I am looking mainly at http://www.reed.co.uk (which tells you the number of people who have applied), http://www.cwjobs.co.uk and http://www.jobsite.co.uk - all user friendly in that you can put in a keyword and your location and get back sensible results (i.e. a defined radius is used). I also check a number of other less-friendly sites.
The irritations are (in no particular order):-
* few, if any, relevent jobs at the moment
* agencies posting the same job multiple times
* agencies lying about where the job is, or not specifying the town or specifying a number of towns
May 11, 2009 at 5:37 am
I've stuck with Dice, CareerBuilder and Monster. Though there seems to be a fairly large amount of overlap. My chief complaint right now is 1 job being posted from multiple headhunters. I saw one job with 5 different companies trying to get people.
That said... Anyone looking for a decent dba? I believe the big O is coming to Hartford....
Honor Super Omnia-
Jason Miller
May 11, 2009 at 6:02 am
I have whined, ranted and raved for years about the lack of a good definition of what a DBA is. In fact, I would like to challenge you (Steve et al) to define what a DBA is! Over the years I have interviewed surely well over 100 people for DBA positions and its nothing less than amazing to find what people "out there" think makes a DBA. Some of the responses I have gotten when asking people why they are applying for a DBA position range from "I know how to write stored procedures!" to "I have done some SQL backups." to "That was the title they gave me at my last job."
We require that our DBAs know .NET as well which has meant over these last couple years that finding good qualified people is like finding a piece of hay in a pile of needles. I am happy to say though that we hooked up with a headhunter a couple years ago who has weeded out good candidates for us twice now, and thankfully I've gotten very good people - but in general, finding a good talented, qualified, team-player DBA has been like finding a good politician - there are thousands of them out there, and rarely one worth what their resumes would have you believe.
May 11, 2009 at 6:14 am
Since we've gone through two year searches in the past for DBA's, I sure can't tell you how to find them. While we weren't trying to get them to know .NET like Blandry, we did expect them to know SQL Server. It was extremely frustrating looking through stacks of resumes, most with 3-7 years of experience but with only 1 in 10 able to answer a majority of the questions posted here[/url].
Since I work for a large company, we've had better luck getting people from within the company. There are so many jobs that work with data. You can identify developers or report writers or ETL people working within their area that are likely candidates. Grabbing them and training them up has been more successful than tracking down viable candidates through any of the job sites.
BTW Blandry, if it makes you feel better, we would have found even fewer people if we also required .NET. There are a few of us that came into the DBA job through the programming route that understand .NET languages, but most people came up through systems or ETL and only know databases, TSQL, and servers.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
May 11, 2009 at 6:41 am
Grant Fritchey (5/11/2009)
It was extremely frustrating looking through stacks of resumes, most with 3-7 years of experience but with only 1 in 10 able to answer a majority of the questions posted here[/url].
I'm sure I was asked all of those questions at an interview recently... was for a Developer, not DBA contract though.
Problem with the "point and click" interface of SQL Server is that a lot of DBA's can get through their day job without having to *think* about what they're doing.
Also someone with 7 years DBA experience could well have only 6 months. The other 6 and a half years is really developer experience which they have fudged on their CV to look like they were a DBA
May 11, 2009 at 6:57 am
Samuel Vella (5/11/2009)
Also someone with 7 years DBA experience could well have only 6 months. The other 6 and a half years is really developer experience which they have fudged on their CV to look like they were a DBA
Exactly. There's a joke that's developed around here: Do you have twenty years of experience or one year of experience twenty times?
When it's the latter, it's easy to spot.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
May 11, 2009 at 7:29 am
I'd like a good definition of what a DBA is as well. Or better yet a range of Database related job titles:
DBA - The A stands for Administrator (which implies different things to different people)...
database developer - someone with programming experience as well (like .Net - not just T-SQL).
BI developer....
I've seen a lot of job ads that say DBA, but really want a programmer who can access a database...
May 11, 2009 at 7:39 am
It's not just an issue regarding DBAs. There are several closely related and legitimate job roles that involve using SQL and databases (reporting, programmer analyst, etc.), and it's amazing how hard it is to find people for those jobs as well.
I just think there aren't enough people training on and learning database theory and real-world SQL and database tasks. Heck, most days I find another area of SQL that I don't know as well as I should, and then I have to try to learn it while I am also responsible for all of my other work.
And that's not even counting the difficulty some people and organizations have in understanding what a DBA is, or why one is even needed.
So along with those (including those in the "how hard can databases be" crowd :w00t:) who deliberately fudge resumes in order to make it seem like they have DBA experience, there are many others who are honest and well-intentioned, but who may not realize the scale of the DBA job. So they may show up and disappoint you if you're hiring, or they may be scared off when they read a genuine DBA job description.
There should really be a DBA major in colleges, or at least a comprehensive computer science minor that includes realistic DBA tasks - SQL with procedures and error handling, performance tuning, db theory and applications, backups, recovery (including testing backups), and so on. I know there are specific CS courses offered, but it really is a field unto itself once people realize what is involved.
And ironically, most other professionals depend on DBAs - businesspeople, doctors, lawyers, professors, police officers, pro athletes, and so on. And not just in the way that lots of people depend on certain basic items (paper, fabric, food), but in a way that requires someone with a lot of ability and knowledge of databases to keep things running for that particular organization or even that particular location. I don't intend to disparage providers of paper, fabric, and food, of course, since those are staples of civilization. I just mean that needs that a DBA serves are of a different and more specialized category, yet they paradoxically involve a multitude of disciplines - the db products themselves, programming, networking, security, hardware, etc.
Sorry, this reply went off track. 🙂 But I do think it is relevant to understand what might be affecting the size and quality of the candidate pool.
Just my two cents....
- webrunner
-------------------
A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. He walks up to them and asks, "Can I join you?"
Ref.: http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2009/02/sql-joke.html
May 11, 2009 at 7:42 am
ChrisMoix (5/11/2009)
I'd like a good definition of what a DBA is as well. Or better yet a range of Database related job titles:DBA - The A stands for Administrator (which implies different things to different people)...
database developer - someone with programming experience as well (like .Net - not just T-SQL).
BI developer....
I've seen a lot of job ads that say DBA, but really want a programmer who can access a database...
Here's one from the Occupational Outlook Handbook. It may not be perfect, but I like that handbook because it is a good start on helping to define professions. But I noticed that DBAs are still not broken out into their own field. They are listed as part of computer scientists.
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos042.htm
- webrunner
-------------------
A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. He walks up to them and asks, "Can I join you?"
Ref.: http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2009/02/sql-joke.html
May 11, 2009 at 7:43 am
ChrisMoix (5/11/2009)
database developer - someone with programming experience as well (like .Net - not just T-SQL).
From personal experience (10 years) I'd say that the .NET stipulation is misleading, you're likely to end up with a .NET Developer who has dabbled in database development
May 11, 2009 at 8:13 am
Here comes a curveball. Instead of focusing on the best way to find and screen DBA talent, spend that time looking for an excellent technical recruiter. Hiring talent is a specialty. If you don't do it every day, odds are you are going to do the process poorly.
Looking for a good recruiter also provides you with a better payback on your time. If you are in the business of managing personnel one constant is turnover. A good technical recruiter is a resource you will use for a long time. You may have to go through three of four to find the right one, but it will be worth it.
On the issue of cost, if you use a good recruiter your odds of placing your candidate on the first try are much higher. Compare that cost with going through 2 or three poor candidates over a years time.
BTW, I am not a recruiter, but I have seen the value a good one can bring...
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