October 18, 2010 at 6:15 pm
Matt Miller (#4) (10/18/2010)
Ninja's_RGR'us (10/18/2010)
How would you guys react? I still have full access to all source codes and their backups. I have no intent to destroy there servers and yet no intent of letting 'em access to those files.I understand the gut reaction, because I've been in your shoes, but - don't compound the situation. The work product isn't yours, so even though it might feel personally gratifying, it's ultimately wrong (and illegal in some jurisdictions) to withhold it.
The only thing worse than losing an account is to lose the acocunt AND lose your reputation in the process.
Pursue the matter through the company who subcontracted to you. They ultimately have a responsibility to get you paid, and a financial incentive in getting you paid (since they no doubt take a cut as well), so they may have some leverage. That said - most companies won't negotiate with a threat over their head, so - do the right thing.
Still - it's an awful scenario to be in. Sorry to hear.
I have no intention of destroying anything or stopping a website to work or even babling about the situation to their customers.
My gut feeling as you say is that as long as I'm not paid, the modification to the source code since the last payment (7 weeks ago) are mine and my intellectual property. That property is transfered to them as soon as they post the payment. Now there's a little curve here as there's another player in between and they also own part of the code.
I also feel this really is my only leverage point. I'm getting replaced next monday by a new hire and I have to hand over the keys to him so that leaves us with very little time to get this resolved.
I'm also aware that my contractor is the one responsible to pay me regardless what happens with the next payment. However they sent almost 250 000$ my way in the last few years so I'm a little hard press to put a gun to their heads (I'm personnally owed ± 3 weeks assuming they didn't send the check last week which they never did).
October 19, 2010 at 2:09 am
Ninja's_RGR'us (10/18/2010)
Matt Miller (#4) (10/18/2010)
Ninja's_RGR'us (10/18/2010)
How would you guys react? I still have full access to all source codes and their backups. I have no intent to destroy there servers and yet no intent of letting 'em access to those files.I understand the gut reaction, because I've been in your shoes, but - don't compound the situation. The work product isn't yours, so even though it might feel personally gratifying, it's ultimately wrong (and illegal in some jurisdictions) to withhold it.
The only thing worse than losing an account is to lose the acocunt AND lose your reputation in the process.
Pursue the matter through the company who subcontracted to you. They ultimately have a responsibility to get you paid, and a financial incentive in getting you paid (since they no doubt take a cut as well), so they may have some leverage. That said - most companies won't negotiate with a threat over their head, so - do the right thing.
Still - it's an awful scenario to be in. Sorry to hear.
I have no intention of destroying anything or stopping a website to work or even babling about the situation to their customers.
My gut feeling as you say is that as long as I'm not paid, the modification to the source code since the last payment (7 weeks ago) are mine and my intellectual property. That property is transfered to them as soon as they post the payment. Now there's a little curve here as there's another player in between and they also own part of the code.
I also feel this really is my only leverage point. I'm getting replaced next monday by a new hire and I have to hand over the keys to him so that leaves us with very little time to get this resolved.
I'm also aware that my contractor is the one responsible to pay me regardless what happens with the next payment. However they sent almost 250 000$ my way in the last few years so I'm a little hard press to put a gun to their heads (I'm personnally owed ± 3 weeks assuming they didn't send the check last week which they never did).
I had this once with a direct contract. After a tip off that they were intentionally withholding payment so I asked the accounts department why my invoices were not being paid. The MD eventually turned up onsite and asked me to leave immediately. Of course, I complied but before I did the MD told me that he had no intention of paying me refusing to explain why.
Unfortunately, I had to resort to professionals in the Legal profession in order to be paid. Whilst I did get paid, there were no winners but I did avoid losing out. I would never assist this ex-client again under any circumstances but I refrained from any unethical and unprofessional actions although I am certain I could have done some pretty malicious damage to the business.
I remained professional - of course, I was tempted...
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
October 19, 2010 at 2:25 am
I think it is simple. Analyse the situation, report the situation upwards offering solutions and identifying issues and allow management to manage.
Whenever management says JFDI (Just Do It - for those who didn't know), explain what the implications are and get them to acknowledge that. You need to explain what else will be pushed aside and what you expect of management e.g. get off your back and shield you from users (to some degree) so you can achieve this.
Finally, it is a valid thing to supply in the detailed analysis how to avoid this in future e.g. Scenario 1: proper planning / impact analysis and Scenario 2: resource/task planning.
Of course, I haven't seen it mentioned that perhaps there was enough slack in the workload for Scenario 2 to happen (rare but occasionally true).
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
October 19, 2010 at 4:14 am
Gary Varga (10/19/2010)
Ninja's_RGR'us (10/18/2010)
Matt Miller (#4) (10/18/2010)
Ninja's_RGR'us (10/18/2010)
How would you guys react? I still have full access to all source codes and their backups. I have no intent to destroy there servers and yet no intent of letting 'em access to those files.I understand the gut reaction, because I've been in your shoes, but - don't compound the situation. The work product isn't yours, so even though it might feel personally gratifying, it's ultimately wrong (and illegal in some jurisdictions) to withhold it.
The only thing worse than losing an account is to lose the acocunt AND lose your reputation in the process.
Pursue the matter through the company who subcontracted to you. They ultimately have a responsibility to get you paid, and a financial incentive in getting you paid (since they no doubt take a cut as well), so they may have some leverage. That said - most companies won't negotiate with a threat over their head, so - do the right thing.
Still - it's an awful scenario to be in. Sorry to hear.
I have no intention of destroying anything or stopping a website to work or even babling about the situation to their customers.
My gut feeling as you say is that as long as I'm not paid, the modification to the source code since the last payment (7 weeks ago) are mine and my intellectual property. That property is transfered to them as soon as they post the payment. Now there's a little curve here as there's another player in between and they also own part of the code.
I also feel this really is my only leverage point. I'm getting replaced next monday by a new hire and I have to hand over the keys to him so that leaves us with very little time to get this resolved.
I'm also aware that my contractor is the one responsible to pay me regardless what happens with the next payment. However they sent almost 250 000$ my way in the last few years so I'm a little hard press to put a gun to their heads (I'm personnally owed ± 3 weeks assuming they didn't send the check last week which they never did).
I had this once with a direct contract. After a tip off that they were intentionally withholding payment so I asked the accounts department why my invoices were not being paid. The MD eventually turned up onsite and asked me to leave immediately. Of course, I complied but before I did the MD told me that he had no intention of paying me refusing to explain why.
Unfortunately, I had to resort to professionals in the Legal profession in order to be paid. Whilst I did get paid, there were no winners but I did avoid losing out. I would never assist this ex-client again under any circumstances but I refrained from any unethical and unprofessional actions although I am certain I could have done some pretty malicious damage to the business.
I remained professional - of course, I was tempted...
Thanks for all you guys help. I'll keep you posted when I have more news.My contractor seems to not even care about it (in a good way). He's been around for 30 years so it's not the first time he deals with this. I'll trust him and see where this goes.
October 19, 2010 at 12:31 pm
Sounds like a good plan.
If you do have trouble getting paid, and trouble getting a valid reason for that, make sure you publish the name of the offending company somewhere, to warn other potential contractors of the problem. Better Business Bureau has good tools for publishing complaints about companies.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
October 22, 2010 at 6:40 am
The first question to ask is whether or not you can weather the storm. When you cannot positively impact an organization because you have absolutely lost faith in management to turn the hard times around then it is time to go.
October 25, 2010 at 3:23 am
Back to the scenarios - i've found myself in similar situations on many occasions.
My tips are always to document everything, keep evidence trails (and these don't have to be secret hidden away ones, they can be in the public domain and known about), copy in relevant people, and if im being asked to fit 15 potatoes in a bag made for 5 (as is this week), again document the outstanding items being requested, then present them to relevant management and ask them to prioratise what they want doing first - let the management manage 🙂 Help with ramifications of priorities, timescales, limitations etc. so they are aware of what they are asking for.
Helps them too!
m.
November 1, 2010 at 9:01 am
Martin Bastable (10/25/2010)
Back to the scenarios - i've found myself in similar situations on many occasions.My tips are always to document everything, keep evidence trails (and these don't have to be secret hidden away ones, they can be in the public domain and known about), copy in relevant people, and if im being asked to fit 15 potatoes in a bag made for 5 (as is this week), again document the outstanding items being requested, then present them to relevant management and ask them to prioratise what they want doing first - let the management manage 🙂 Help with ramifications of priorities, timescales, limitations etc. so they are aware of what they are asking for.
Helps them too!
m.
I was advised by someone with the title Senior Software Engineer to always keep a log book. It has often proved useful for productivity. Occasionally, to remind people what they promised when and for when. Twice contractually (once on behalf of a client against another supplied - a REALLY big one).
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
November 4, 2010 at 5:45 am
Well I've certainly found myself in scenario one a number of times for various types of apps, not just db's. In that situation I think the best path is definitely to do everything you can to makes things better, after all that's your job, but at the same time make sure you are managing expectations with management and other staff. Make sure they understand that you can't promise results, and that you are seen to do what you can. If you succeed then hopefully you'll be acknowledged, if not then you tried, and they have it on record.
Pointing out to management that it was a bad idea to not involve you in the purchase process is fine and hopefully worthwhile, but once you've made that point leave it alone. Don't whine on about it since 1) it's too late to do anything about it, and 2) you'll just come across in a negative light.
For scenario two I think it's very much the same, do what you can (assuming you intend to stay), don't whine on about the problems, but do make it clear to management what the situation is. Work out early on if the extra workload will mean that existing deadlines might be missed, and if so make management aware, give them the options, and let them decide where you should concentrate your time on. IMHO the aim it to continue being a team player (and be seen as such) without becoming a doormat. Once management have advised which jobs should be put on hold / rescheduled / given lower priority, make sure if it's not already clear that the other stakeholders in those projects are aware, and know that the decision has been made from above so they also know what is happening and can if required adjust their plans accordingly. I think everyone knows that things don't always go to plan, and they can accept that, but finding out at the last minute, especially when the decision was made some time ago just annoys everyone, and you don't want to be the target of that annoyance if it wasn't your decision in the first place.
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