July 12, 2011 at 11:19 am
The water cooler must be leaking, because it just got deep in here:).
That said - trying to disassociate law from social contract is like trying to separate a jelly fish from its skin. Without a social contract as a framework, there would be nothing separating law from, say, slavery, bullying or any other group manifestation of the "beast" Kant referred to. The social contract itself gives the law shape, and limits it to not go overboard.
Also, in the same way you can delegate responsibility without relegating responsibility, government is seen as an agreed system or delegation, where a selected few are responsible for shaping certain constraints for the overall good of the many. Just because my hands are not performing every task doesn't make me any more or less irresponsible.
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
July 12, 2011 at 11:25 am
'Just finished reading the book (or 900 page tome?) Shantaram, and one of the quotes there is:
The biggest problem with corruption as a form of government, is that it works so well.
Sometimes that can actually be good - as when a useless law is circumvented by using bribery. But most of the time it's just people getting their way with bribery or violence. All too often, the victims, at least in the book, are victims only because they get in the way of the powerful who ruthlessly strive to keep their power.
Edit: to correct me English. :'D
The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. - Stephen Hawking
July 12, 2011 at 12:57 pm
Matt Miller (#4) (7/12/2011)
The water cooler must be leaking, because it just got deep in here:).That said - trying to disassociate law from social contract is like trying to separate a jelly fish from its skin. Without a social contract as a framework, there would be nothing separating law from, say, slavery, bullying or any other group manifestation of the "beast" Kant referred to. The social contract itself gives the law shape, and limits it to not go overboard.
Also, in the same way you can delegate responsibility without relegating responsibility, government is seen as an agreed system or delegation, where a selected few are responsible for shaping certain constraints for the overall good of the many. Just because my hands are not performing every task doesn't make me any more or less irresponsible.
The problem with that definition of "law" and "social contract" is that it doesn't actually encompas the subject of law throughout most of human history, including the laws the vast majority of humanity are subject to in present time. There is no "mutually consenting social contract" in a thugocracy like what most of humanity has lived under, but there sure is law!
Unless you define a social contract as "anything two or more people agree to, even if the agreement is coerced", you can't call the laws of pre-Magna Carta England (for one example) as a "social contract". But they were laws, by common parlance, and by the definition I use for that subject.
This definition also specifically recognizes situations where a recognized "government" establishes "rules", but is unable to enforce them and thus they don't really belong in the subject of "law", in my estimation. For example, the German government in the 1920s was unable to enforce its own mandates, and thus there was no "rule of law", and we ended up with the Nazi party "winning elections" by force and intimidation. The Nazis were able to back up their rules with the credible threat of lethal violence, hence their rules were taken as law, while the Weimarr(sp?) Republic's rules were ignored or treated as strongly worded suggestions with no teeth to them.
The idea that "law" and "non-coerced social contract" are synonymous, or even in agreement with each other, is based on a very small sample of a few laws in a few societies in very recent times, and has very little historical agreement. And, if we talk about coerced social contracts, how does that substantively differ from my definition of law? It doesn't, and thus backs up my original thesis on the subject.
Edit: And, yeah, the subjects of law, government, et al, can get pretty darn deep. In a lot of ways. 🙂
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
July 12, 2011 at 1:07 pm
GSquared (7/12/2011)
Unless you define a social contract as "anything two or more people agree to, even if the agreement is coerced", you can't call the laws of pre-Magna Carta England (for one example) as a "social contract". But they were laws, by common parlance, and by the definition I use for that subject.
Actually, you can call them a social contract and there were several levels of this. There was the social contract between king and nobles, then between higher and lower nobles and finally between lowest "lords" and the common people. There were also social contracts between people of the same level of social standing and between the "official" and commoner.
For example, the commoner paid the local lord taxes and in return he provided what protection he could. The laws about this merely codified the social contracts of the time, ensuring that everyone contributed and was covered. That these laws and social contracts were far more brutal than those we're used to doesn't mean they weren't still laws and social contracts.
A social contract is a concept under which a society functions. Medieval society, especially at the highest levels, was bound by precident and tradition. Essentially Precident was anything you got away with once and Tradition was getting away with it two years in a row.
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When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
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It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
July 12, 2011 at 1:24 pm
I figured I would throw my 2 bit sense in here too. I do not think that the post are getting worst. What you have to remember is that, you once were at the point, that you asked what some would call a stupid question. I do not think there is any stupid questions only uneducated people and what better way to get educated than to ask someone who knows! Rather than screw something up.
July 12, 2011 at 1:27 pm
bopeavy (7/12/2011)
I figured I would throw my 2 bit sense in here too. I do not think that the post are getting worst. What you have to remember is that, you once were at the point, that you asked what some would call a stupid question. I do not think there is any stupid questions only uneducated people and what better way to get educated than to ask someone who knows! Rather than screw something up.
Just so you know, this thread is more the 'watercooler' at this point instead of being an actual whine and moan thread of record length. 🙂
No, there aren't stupid questions. There is, however, incredibly badly presented ones, and very stubborn newbies.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
July 12, 2011 at 1:32 pm
Just so you know, this thread is more the 'watercooler' at this point instead of being an actual whine and moan thread of record length.
No, there aren't stupid questions. There is, however, incredibly badly presented ones, and very stubborn newbies.
Criag
I agree you can lead a horse to water but you can't teach him to drink.
P.S. I was giving it from a LOL stand point. That's why I said my 2 bit sense:w00t:
July 12, 2011 at 1:57 pm
A couple of hours after Denali CTP3 and R2 SP1 are released, and what are you all talking about?
Banks and social contracts.
:blink: :laugh:
Paul White
SQLPerformance.com
SQLkiwi blog
@SQL_Kiwi
July 12, 2011 at 2:25 pm
Forget Denali and R2... It's almost time to start talking about (American) Football again.
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Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. -- Friedrich Schiller
Stop, children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down. -- Stephen Stills
July 12, 2011 at 2:32 pm
The Dixie Flatline (7/12/2011)
Forget Denali and R2... It's almost time to start talking about (American) Football again.
[font="Comic Sans MS"]Oh good.[/font]
Comic Sans MS is the official sarcasm font, I'm told.
Paul White
SQLPerformance.com
SQLkiwi blog
@SQL_Kiwi
July 12, 2011 at 2:39 pm
SQLkiwi (7/12/2011)
The Dixie Flatline (7/12/2011)
Forget Denali and R2... It's almost time to start talking about (American) Football again.[font="Comic Sans MS"]Oh good.[/font]
Comic Sans MS is the official sarcasm font, I'm told.
[font="Wingdings"]No need to fret this year. They'll probably be on lockout all year. Players think they are treated like slaves:rolleyes:[/font]
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
July 12, 2011 at 2:39 pm
Jim Murphy (7/12/2011)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (7/12/2011)
Seems like the drive for profits interferes in many business' ability to deliver good service.Yep. I find that the most service-friendly 'banks' are Credit Unions, however, they have THE WORST online banking apps. Argh! Although I hate Chase as a bank, I use them for most of my stuff because of the awesome online banking website, as well as the iPhone and iPad apps to match.
pfft! My experience with credit unions has been abysmal, but perhaps I'm just using the wrong ones.
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How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
July 12, 2011 at 2:43 pm
jcrawf02 (7/12/2011)
Jim Murphy (7/12/2011)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (7/12/2011)
Seems like the drive for profits interferes in many business' ability to deliver good service.Yep. I find that the most service-friendly 'banks' are Credit Unions, however, they have THE WORST online banking apps. Argh! Although I hate Chase as a bank, I use them for most of my stuff because of the awesome online banking website, as well as the iPhone and iPad apps to match.
pfft! My experience with credit unions has been abysmal, but perhaps I'm just using the wrong ones.
I much prefer a credit union over a bank.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
July 12, 2011 at 2:44 pm
SQLkiwi (7/12/2011)
The Dixie Flatline (7/12/2011)
Forget Denali and R2... It's almost time to start talking about (American) Football again.[font="Comic Sans MS"]Oh good.[/font]
Comic Sans MS is the official sarcasm font, I'm told.
:-D:hehe:
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How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
July 12, 2011 at 2:46 pm
SQLRNNR (7/12/2011)
jcrawf02 (7/12/2011)
Jim Murphy (7/12/2011)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (7/12/2011)
Seems like the drive for profits interferes in many business' ability to deliver good service.Yep. I find that the most service-friendly 'banks' are Credit Unions, however, they have THE WORST online banking apps. Argh! Although I hate Chase as a bank, I use them for most of my stuff because of the awesome online banking website, as well as the iPhone and iPad apps to match.
pfft! My experience with credit unions has been abysmal, but perhaps I'm just using the wrong ones.
I much prefer a credit union over a bank.
Feel free. I prefer people who let me get to my own damn money, and don't find excuses to cheat me out of it. Had three major issues like Gus, once with an established banking institution, and two credit unions. I buried my gold under the onions.
Crap, and now I have to go move it...
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How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
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